VoyTechSorry Mark12 and Voytech, I just realised that the Ventura Pubs Classic Warbirds Number 7 may not actually be the “ANZAC Spitfires” edition I was thinking of. Sorry, was assuming it was the same book you mentioned before with Dereck Kain’s Spitfire in Mark. My mistake.
It was the same book with Derek Kain’s Spitfire in. The ANZAC Spitfires only mentioned him IIRC, while CW no. 7 had more photos and the story.
VoyTechSouth Africa has never been part of the ANZAc’s. :confused:
As MarkV has put it: Learning all the time 😀
In fact Malcolm Laird/Ventura has published quite a few things about Spitfires used by Israelis, Yanks, Poles, Frenchmen, and all sorts of people who have never been part of the ANZACs.
VoyTechIt is my understanding that the Maltese aircraft were an unusal case having been partly over-painted in the field.
Mark, there are two sides to this story:
1) no doubt some Maltese Spitfires were repainted in unusual colours under way (first shipment on board USS Wasp) or possibly on the island (due to shortage of everything there I doubt they would care about proper shades during post-repair painting);
but
2) IMHO most of the “unusual-Malta-camouflage” cases are in fact standard Temperate Land ones: many (most?) authors who write about Malta Spitfires evidently ignore this scheme, so when they come across a photo of a Spitfire with low contrast between upper camouflage colours (where they would expect the high-contrast desert scheme) they consider it a “non-standard repaint”.
I think there was something about this in that Spitfire V book that JDK has published 😉
VoyTechYes – I am saying I have never seen the late (C type as we call them) roundels used in combination with the Dark Green/Dark Earth ‘Temperate Land Scheme’. I would expect fighters that were not UK based to be in the ‘Temperate Land Scheme’ but, as they were based abroad, with Dark Green replaced by Middle Stone.
You have seen lots of Temperate Land aircraft with C-type roundels, but they were in black and white photos, so you weren’t aware 🙂
Temperate Land was the standard overseas scheme for fighters until mid-1944 according to all RAF regulations, North Africa being an exception to this rule. If you check the book Roger Freeman did of WW2 colour photos of RAF aircraft (the title escapes me) there are nice colour shots of Keith Park opening a new aerodrome in Malta, and his Spitfire is in Temperate Land with late style roundels.
VoyTechThanks Kukri,
I did say a ‘quick’ count! Obviously it’s a small and unusual sample; but it’s interesting that less than half the murdered escapees were British (itself a catch all term in some cases – Scots, Irish, etc, plus those that chose British despite another nationality). We have a Maori, as well as white New Zealanders, and, I would like to point out, in particular, for some of our correspondants here, a Frenchman.
JDK, as far as I remember (perhaps BlueNoser will able to correct me if I’m wrong) when the Germans decided to execute some of the escapers the rule they adopted was to pick all those who weren’t British and then add enough Brits to make it a nice round number… So the proportion of nationalities among those executed is biased agains the proportions among the escapers.
VoyTechExactly! That’s the point I am making 🙂
Then why have you referred to late style roundels? :confused:
Temperate Land was used on Spitfires in the Med until late 1943/early 1944, by which time they all (well almost all) had late style roundels.
VoyTechI thought ‘dark green’ was replaced by ‘middle stone’ on the temperate land scheme in the Med and N Africa (as AB910 mentioned by Mark12)?
North Africa – yes, Med – not necessarily.
However, by the time this particular Spitfire (PT672 – September 1944) entered service, I would rather suppose it was in standard Day Fighter scheme.
VoyTechThis is an accurate scheme with the late roundels/early camouflage colour combination Mark?
I suppose by “early camouflage colour combination” you mean Temperate Land? Considering that was in the Med, what’s wrong in late roundels with this scheme?
VoyTechF/Lt Tadeusz Koc of no. 308 Sqn was shot down on 3 February 1943 over Belgium, and returned to Britian by 21 February! When he phoned the Officer’s Mess at RAF Northolt telling that he was back in London, the call was initially dismissed as someone’s silly joke…
F/O Bruno Semmerling of 315 Sqn was downed on 3 March 1943 over France. His friend F/O Sworniowski remarked that considering what he looked like, he was unlikely to get caught, because even if he told the Germans he was a fighter pilot, they’d only laugh. Speaking fluent German and French, Semmerling reached Spain by 5 April. He got back to Britain at the beginning of May, bringing some important intelligence with him which earned him the award of Military Cross by the British, who were so impressed with his actions in France that by the end of the year he was released from Polish Air Force and employed on special operations on the continent.
Mieczyslaw Borodej was a bomber pilot in a Polish squadron. He was shot down in a Wellington in 1941 IIRC. After some futile attempts he finally managed to escape from a PoW camp. Rather than go west, he made for his homeland and eventually reached his home city of Lwów (now Lviv in Ukraine). There he joined the resistance movement. In July 1944 when the Soviets approached the city, Polish fighters attacked the Germans behind their lines and made it possible for the Red Army to capture the city swiftly. In line with Stalin’s orders all the members of the resistance identified by the Soviets were quickly sent to gulags in Siberia. Unlike many of his friends, Borodej was lucky to survive long enough to be finally released and return to Poland in mid-1950s, by which time he had lost an eye and an arm.
VoyTechThanks! Can you suggest a good source of photos to illustrate his biography?
VoyTechI wonder if any RNZAF bomber pilots or crews got attached to the USAAF (or US Navy in the Pacific too)?
Speaking of which, I have been looking for good photos plus detailed info of the Pacific service of Mike Herrick. I understand he was credited with the first RNZAF kill there, or is that not true? He was killed during the invasion of France while in command of a flight in no. 305 (Polish) Squadron on Mosquitoes.
VoyTechVoyTech – I had thought of The White Cliffs of Dover, with which I think everyone thinks of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Me109’s when they here it. But it doesn’t directly reference the RAF or aircraft so I didn’t mention that one. Great song though. I’ll never, ever forget the sequence between Mark and Ray Hanna in the Buchon and TB863 at Wanaka 1992, to that tune, as the grand finale. Stunning.
I’ll never forget the people I met
Braving those angry skies
I remember well as the shadows fell
The light of hope in their eyes
And though I’m far away
I still hear them say
Thumbs Up!!
As for the Lancaster crew song, I was really referring to recorded songs so I can track down copies, but that is a very interesting one. Have you got the rest of the lyrics? I have a book somewhere called Bless Em All which has all sorts of soldiers, sailors and airmen’s ‘versions’ of popular songs in it, mostly too bawdy to repeat of course. 🙂
They say there’s a Lancaster leaving the Ruhr
Bound for old Blighty shore,
Heavily laden with flak-frightened crew
S*** scared and prone on the floor.
There’s many a bomber long finished his tour
There’s many a plonk signing on
We’ll get no promotioon this side of the ocean
So cheer up my lads, bless ’em all.
others:
They say there’s a Whitley just leaving Ringway
Bound for old Tatton Park
Heavily laden with parachute troops,
Bound for a jump in the dark.
There’s many a soldier who has jumped before,
There’s many a one had a fall,
But you’ll get no promotion if your chute doesn’t open,
So cheer up my lads Bless ’em all.
A crippled old Fortress was leaving the Ruhr
Bound for old Blimy’s shore
Holes in the fuselage, holes in the wings
Blood all over the floor
Many a Focke Wulf filled her with lead
Many a Messerschmitt, too,
Shot off her ********, shot up her hydraulics
So cheer up my lads, bless ’em all.
Worry me, worry me
Wellingtons don’t worry me.
Oil-chewing b****rds with flaps on their wings,
Buggered-up pistons and buggered-up rings,
The bomb-load is so f***ing small
Four-fifths of five-eighths of f***-all,
There’ll be such a commotion when we’re over the ocean
So cheer up my lads, bless’em all.
Now they say there’s a convoy leaves New York tonight,
Bound for old England’s shore
Heavily laden with browned-off young men
Bound for the land they “adore”.
Now they all know their Mustangs are keen as can be
To catch a Focke-Wolf in their sights
They’re experts at moaning and bitching and groaning
When everything’s going just right.
Bless ’em all, bless ’em all
The needle, the airspeed, the ball
They sent us to school just to teach us to fly
They sent us to solo and left us to die
And if ever your fighter should stall
You’re in for one helluva fall
No lilies and violets for dead fighter pilots
So cheer up, my lads, bless ’em all.
Other versions are welcome!
VoyTechVera Lynn’s “White Cliffs of Dover”!
“Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer” was also recorded in the Soviet Union with Russian lyrics (needless to say, they replaced the Prayer with “a Word of Honour”).
I recall quite a few aviation-related variations of the “Bless’em (F***’em) All”, one of which started like this:
“They say there’s a Lancaster leaving the Ruhr…”
but I am not sure if you meant this kind of songs, or just those recorded and broadcast officially.
A Wellington in a Polish squadron (can’t remember which one) was called “Rose Marie” after a tune, and I think it also carried some notes of the actual tune, painted next to the name.
Also, there was a Ilushin Il-2 with rather large-size representation of the notes of a popular Russian tune.
VoyTechTrue, but I have certainly not seen crowbars in post-war photos. I don’t know why, but it is a fact.
Well, at a certain age one should not trust one’s memory… I have checked my photos and in fact the crowbar is present in some Spitfires photographed after the war. Still it puzzles me why it was missing in only a small percentage of wartime Spitfires, but in majority of the post-war ones. Relaxed discipline after war’s end resulting in more items missing in general? Or were they replaced quickly in wartime?
What you have to realise is, on some Mks, the crowbar is not fitted to the door, it is positioned below the door just aft of the trim control wheels. The Mk6 is a good example.
Did Mk VI have a cockpit door?
VoyTechI can’t see why you can’t have the map holder and the crowbar.
Mark,
You can have both, but I think that it would be difficult to use the map holder if the crowbar is in place. I will check my photos and possibly post some here tomorrow.
The crowbar is to assist the pilot to get out of the aircraft in the event of an accident that will prevent the canopy sliding back.
Accidents are not limited to operational or wartime conditions.
True, but I have certainly not seen crowbars in post-war photos. I don’t know why, but it is a fact.
It may well be that because the crowbar is ‘desirable’ and detachable, a local order may make the pilot responsible for it.
Were they not desirable during the war? Are you suggesting that the crowbars cannot be seen in cockpit door photos because pilots removed them to prevent stealing?
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