dark light

VoyTech

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 15 posts - 751 through 765 (of 953 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1375878
    VoyTech
    Participant

    OK we have four possibilities. 🙂

    Well, if the lion was red, we don’t.

    Are we saying that the photographer switched cameras or filters in 2 seconds flat max, the time between those two images. Why would he do that? Isn’t this more likely to be a printing and exposure issue in the darkroom?

    Do you mean the 315 Sqn pictures? They are scans from contact prints from the original negative. Do you think they would play with printing and exposure between frames when making contact prints from which to choose good shots?
    The reason for changing filters would be to get good facial features and natural background. You can enhance blue/green tones to have natural sky and landscape, or you can enhance red/yellow tones to have good flesh features. Experienced photographer could probably guess the best fit for any lighting condition, but then he could also shoot a couple of frames with varying filters, and then pick the best frame once printed.

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1375886
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Dave, sincere apology if you felt offended by my attitude. Please, bear with me, as I have enjoyed this discussion a lot (not the way I was posting, but the way knowledge was exchanged).

    Regarding the overspraying of badges: if we assume that everybody knew the obliteration would be temporary, perhaps they would not have to care about cleaning and degreasing the surface, on the assumption that ‘the sooner it peels off, the better’?

    Also, the 602-Clostermann connection brings out the old French slogan (I’m not sure if it is overall military, or just the navy) which, roughly translated, means “Paint on top of [nasty substance] equals clean”. I suppose the RAF may have been more ‘English’ in this respect, but in general I believe the workmanship standards in such matters as painting/overpainting were less strict during the war, especially during intensive operations.

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1375908
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Now, if a directive came down to wipe out the unit markings for the time being,

    Once more: if such a directive came down, then I can’t see why you assume that it would make any difference between the white shield base and the colourful motif. The two combined together made the unit marking, so they would have to be removed together.

    I think it makes sense that the Aircraft Finisher, or Rigger, or whoever did the painting on the unit, would grab the stencil and spray gun, and simply line it up and spray over in white. If you knew this was temporary and the markings were to be reapplied later probably, it’d be stupid to paint over it in green and later have to mark out your badge’s spot and start from scratch.

    Having seen photos of hundreds of squadron badges applied to Polish Spitfires I can assure you that nobody cared to mark out the exact spot. The same applied to the Polish AF marking on the nose. They tend to shift between aircraft of the same unit at the same time. A few inches left, or right, up or down, didn’t matter.

    Also you’d end up with a mess if you painted over the whole thing as the new green won’t colour match to the old, etc.

    Of course you are not saying this seriously, are you? We have had that discussion about “exact camouflage hues” some threads ago. With exception of some nit-picking high brass nobody cared if the touch-up paint matched the colour of the old camouflage or not, especially around D-Day.

    And having the white base still there it gives away no secrets

    Sure about that? It didn’t conceal the identity of 602 Sqn for long in this forum.

    All in all, I simply cannot see how airspraying a white shield motif using a template carefully positioned over the same motif already present there could be easier and less time consuming that just hasty overspraying of the shield with its surrounding area.

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1375923
    VoyTech
    Participant

    The possibilities on the 602 machine are:-

    1) The artwork is incomplete

    2) The artwork detail has been painted out.

    3) The artwork detail has faded to the point where there is but not a trace of the lion rampant in a time period not to exceed 10 months.

    4) The artwork is still there, but a matching colour filter on the photographer’s lens rendered the lion virtually white, like another filter rendered the red fields almost invisible on the Polish marking in one of the shots of the 315 Sqn Mk V.

    I favour number 2 and I did get a personal authoritative email, from incidentally Poland, saying this was a security directive.

    Good! All it takes me now is to get Franek (I’ll probably meet him tomorrow over a pint) to send you another mail, saying that the directive referred to removing the entire emblems, not just the colourful motifs.

    Yet the shield is still so crisp with not a hint of erosion or fading.

    Mark, is this really what you call “crisp white shield”? I can certainly see some colour variations in it. Incidentally, the tonal value of all the greys on the shield is in the range of 10% in your photo, whereas the tonal value of the sky is close to 0%. This photo must have been taken with a film/filter combination that rendered blue tones extremely pale (natural if you take portrait photos, you use photographic material that brings out warm (flesh) tones. So, what was the colour of the Lion in 602’s badge? Was it blue?

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1376095
    VoyTech
    Participant

    I have to apologise, as I never gave credits for the photos I posted. The two Polish AF Spitfires are from the archives of the Polish Institute and Sikorski Museum, London. The 602 Sqn Spitfire is from the personal archive of Pierre Clostermann.

    For some reason nobody cared to discuss the 315 Sqn Mk V photo with the whitish square where the Polish AF marking should be. You have probably discarded it as yet another badly faded template/airbrush-applied motif, immaterial to the discussion here, and throughly explained in your previous posts, right?
    Well, fortunately for us, the Polish AF Film Unit photographer took a a couple of photos of the same scene at the same time, just changing filters on his lens. The Polish AF marking wasn’t faded, or eroded, or overpainted. It was very much standard red-and-white, suffering badly from a precisely matched colour filter that rendered it virtually white:

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1376119
    VoyTech
    Participant

    I just can’t see dark colour hand painted detail bleaching, fading or eroding in such a short time.

    Like I told you, 602 squadron seems to have applied their badge with template/airbrush technique:

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1376123
    VoyTech
    Participant

    We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. 🙂

    I don’t mind agreeing or disagreeing with you (and any other participant of this thread) on this or other topics, but I didn’t think that was the point of this thread, was it?
    You have started with the question

    So what is going on here?

    A lot of posts have been done, but I don’t think anybody has reached conclusion as to the final answer to it, as far as we discuss the 602 Sqn machine. The reason I always enjoy discussing things on this forum, and with you in particular, is that this gives us all the opportunity to learn something. But for that, we have to talk facts. I will gladly accept your view, if you care to tell me where is the fault in my reasoning.
    I will deal with the doubts below:
    Question 1:
    It took the forum members about 40 minutes to identify the shape of the shield with 602 Sqn badge, so the theory that just the Scottish Lion was removed when

    a directive was given to “remove or paint out any markings that could directly be attributable to a squadron or unit”

    is very naive to say the least.
    What do you think?

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1377537
    VoyTech
    Participant

    First, I do not see any connection between these two Spitfires. As you might recall, I can’t normally post pictures on weekend, but tomorrow I will post a picture of another Spitfire with an empty, white base waiting for the badge to be applied. That Spitfire was photographed in 1941, clearly nothing to do with pre-invasion regulations. So in my opinion the US Spitfire is just that: waiting to have the badge applied. My argument is only related to the 602 one.

    Typically for stencils, sprayed on paint is the choice.
    In the case of
    the 602 Squadron ‘Lion Rampant’
    the complex individual artwork will have been laminated on using a well loaded artist’s brush.

    602 Sqn did apply their emblem (the lion, not the shield) using template/airbrush technique (picture tomorrow).

    Total erosion of the Lion would leave a profile of the lion in white on a camouflaged shield profile that was a couple of tones greater than the surrounding area, as each layer protects the layer underneath during the erosion process.

    You surely know a whole lot more than me about paint erosion etc. However, I meant fading (i. e. discolouration) plus film/filter effect, rather than physical erosion of the paint.

    for my money the most logical explanation is that pre D-Day, a directive was given to “remove or paint out any ‘personal’ markings that could directly be attributable to a squadron or unit”. Oh yes and while you are there “stick some black and white stripes on the fuse and wings”.

    I still can’t see why it should be logical.
    First, the shield is as much “directly attributable to a squadron or unit” as the whole badge (I can’t think of any other Spitfire squadron at the time using this shape and position of unit emblem). If the high brass, hypothetically, said “remove all the emblems” that’s what they meant, not just “remove the part that you think important and leave something else that you might find convenient for future use”.
    Second, considering how hastily the D-Day stripes were applied in most cases, I would be surprised if the groud crew preferred the complicated technique of retouching the white shield, rather than just overpaint/overspray the badge.
    Third, exactly how much money do you want to bet on your theory?

    PS. I still wait for theories as to the 315 Sqn Mk V’s Polish marking: faded(eroded), overpainted, or something else?

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1381077
    VoyTech
    Participant

    This is a photo of 315 pilots in early 1942, in front of the Spitfire VB AB931 PK-C. (Sorry about the quality, it is a scan of a contact print from a 35 mm neg.) On the side of the cowling you can see a pale square. Is it a faded Polish AF marking, an overpainted Polish AF marking, or something else?

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1381085
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Mark,
    The faded Polish AF marking on the cowling of Spitfire IX BS556 RF-G. The photo was taken at Northolt on 24 June 1943, the aeroplane had been with Polish units since mid-April.

    in reply to: Can we come up with our own RAF Museum Wish List? #1382441
    VoyTech
    Participant

    My personal wish for the RAF Museum is not quite along the principles you gave: I wish they finally had that photo order processing person at the archive, so we could order photos (prints, scans, whatever) again. But I’m afraid it’s as likely as for them to get a fully airworthy Stirling.

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1382466
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Gee Voy Tech, that 602 dark ‘Lion Rampant’ sure has faded badly in just 10 months

    Mark, the book “Spitfire IX and XVI of Polish Airmen” includes a sequence of photos of a Spitfire, BS556 RF-G, being refuelled. I don’t have the book at hand, but guess you have it. 😉 In one of the shots you have a close-up of the Polish insignia which is very badly faded, and yet that particular Spitfire had only been with Polish units for two months or so (incidentally – April to June 1943, matching the season we are talking about here). So I guess 10 months time is enough for a badge to fade completely. And with a proper combination of film/filter you can ‘fade’ it to white. I’ll try and find some scans by tomorrow.

    in reply to: "Patty's A VIRGIN" #1382621
    VoyTech
    Participant

    If, as I am now leaning toward, this was a directive from on high to cover up ‘intelligence’ related artwork, one can see that both these examples are covering identifiable Unit Crests/Emblems rather than general ‘nose art’. Indeed finely ‘whited out’ so that replacement at a later date would be all the easier rather than just blowing it over with camouflage.

    I am seriously doubtful about this theory. Can you imagine fitters carefully removing the colour part of badges on aircraft but leaving the white base? If they did it by hand – very time consuming. If they used templates – it would be so much easier to overpaint the entire thing with one stroke of a wide brush, and then use the very template to reapply a fresh white base a couple of weeks later when the badge was allowed again.
    To me that on the 602 Spitfire would just be a very faded emblem, probably combined with a film/filter combination that made the colour part virtually invisible in the photo. What was the colour of 602 Sqn badge (I understand it was just one colour on top of the white shield)?

    in reply to: Who is this Pinup? Spitfire Artwork from Kohat 1944 #1383806
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Yeah, Pauline Mc Wee or Mee Wee and Smashing/Smashe.. at the end.

    Google search for Pauline McWee turns up naught.. hence the query

    One of our Scottish friends might correct me if I’m wrong, but “Me Wee” seems to mean “My Little” in this northern language, IIRC.

    in reply to: A puzzling Hurricane photograph. #1387784
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Great thread! As a layman when it comes to Hurricanes I have certainly learned something.
    Now OT, can you, native speakers, tell me what is the correct name of the filter fitted to Hurricanes?

    That Vokes filter was first used by RAF operationally over Malta.

    what looks like a Volkes filter fitted

    B) BTW it is a Volke filter on 277 I have a much better copy of that photo in Springbok Fighter Victory and there is another photo showing 277 from the front with an identical Volkes Filter (to our mystery Hurricane) and 2 blade propellar (black with yellow tips)

Viewing 15 posts - 751 through 765 (of 953 total)