dark light

VoyTech

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 8 posts - 946 through 953 (of 953 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Spitfire B Wing vs C Wing question #1826785
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Hello everyone,

    Away from my computer for the weekend, I was doing my home work, anyway. I am much pleased to say I reached most of the same conclusions that you did.

    In case you thought the matter was all explained and clear now, a few more comments.

    As per fitting 4 0.303 Brownings in a C wing: the Mk V manual (the one reprinted and sold in bookshops) actually includes a drawing of how this is to be done.

    About the universal (C) wing without the outer stub:
    Close look into Ventura’s “American Spitfire Camouflage and Markings. Part 2” reveals that many Mk VC and Mk IX Spitfires of the 52nd FG had these outer stubs removed and the openings faired over in a not too careful way (photos on pp. 19, 23, 24, 27, 29, 38, 43). Curiously, none of the Mk VC and Mk IX Spitfires of the sister 31st FG (shown in “Part 1” of the same publication) lacked these stubs. This seems to prove that the outer stubs could be removed when required, and that at least in the USAAF it was a matter of unit policy rather than production.

    I have also checked my library and photographic archive for any identifiable Mk IXs with these stubless wings.
    I found four early F.IXs of Supermarine proper:
    BS340,
    BS342,
    possibly BS354
    BS546
    But there are photos of other Mk IXs in the same serial range that feature the stubs very prominently, so it seems unlikely this was a production standard – to me their stubs were removed in service.

    But I also found at least seven (possibly eight) CBAF built Mk IXs:
    MA706,
    MA807,
    possibly MA834,
    MA843,
    MH314,
    MH353,
    MH378,
    (Mark, do you have early photos of MH415?),
    MH434.
    Clearly, the latter sequence is noteworthy – they were all delivered by Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory in the summer 1943. MA706 served in the Mediterranean, so may have passed through the butcherous hands of the 52nd FG (MA743, MA747 and MA791 in Britain had their outer stubs in place). In any case, I found no photo of a Mk IX in the MA800-MH434 serial range with these stubs on! Therefore I now have little doubt that such a variation existed in production. So, I come back to my earlier hypothesis:
    At some point it was decided to discard the second 20 mm cannon in Mk IX (this was decided quite early in trials of the variant and was beacuse of CoG problems, not heating, as far as I remember). For this reason designers altered the wing structure to do away with the second ‘chimney pot’. But then the (e) weapon fit was devised, so the second ‘chimney pot’ became useful once again, and went back in production.

    One last thing. Have you noticed that all the official reference to Mk V wing variants is in capitals: Mk VA, VB, VC. But the weapon fit in Mk IX/XVI is invariably ‘(e)’, not ‘E’? Would that be insignificant?

    in reply to: Spitfire B Wing vs C Wing question #1827220
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Mark12,

    It seems to me that the label ‘Early Mk IX aircraft’ in the manual refers to all Spitfire IXs armed with two 20 mm cannon plus 4 .303 machine guns, regardless of the number of “chimney pots” in the leading edge. Or is there a separate drawing for those Mk IXs with the empty second cannon outlet?

    Now, how many Mk IXs like this can be identified? I can think of three at the moment: MH434, the “BS456” posted in the forum, and a third one of which I have a photo, but with no serial, codes or other markings visible. Seems few, compared to hundreds (I think) of normal C wing Spitfires.

    What would be the purpose of altering the production procedures to incorporate this sort of change if it then was so scarce?

    It is not visible in photos of most of the earliest Mk IXs (AB, BR, BS serials), so it does not seem to have been an inherited B wing.
    Was it possibly meant to replace the universal wing when the four cannon weapon fit was discarded in Mk IXs? In such case it may have been introduced in production at the same time as the narrow single feed mechanism fairing over the cannon bay (in place of the early wide one that covered two feed mechanisms), only to be dropped shortly afterwards, when the outboard cannon bay came to be used in the E weapon layout. But then, is it listed in the Modification Lists for Mk IXs? These included small things (like rudder pedal straps) and major things (like Merlin 66 replacing Merlin 61), so a wing change should be covered, too.

    in reply to: MH434 And Her Many Guises #1827222
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Mark,

    In fact I posted this remark before reading the other discussion on B vs. C wing elsewhere in this forum, so I will reply to you there, so as not to confuse the matters between discussions.

    in reply to: Spitfire B Wing vs C Wing question #1827233
    VoyTech
    Participant

    I have always thought that the C wing and the universal wing were the same thing and that C and B wing designations referred to the same structural design (not just weapon fit) on various marks of Spitfires at the same time.
    Therefore two questions:
    Was “Mk IXB” ever an official designation? I do not have a copy of the Mk IX/XVI manual at hand, but some of you out there do have it. Does the title or the of AP1565 J&L or its Leading Particulars refer to “Mk IXB”?

    And another question: does the absence of an aperture and external protrusion for a second cannon positively mean it was never there? Could it not be that in some Sqns/MUs these were removed and faired over during repair without altering the internal structure?

    Also, Bradburger – the photo you posted does not show BS456. I have seen so many photos of BS456 I can be positive this is not her.
    I seem to have seen your photo somewhere and it may have been captioned like BS546 or something similar.

    in reply to: MH434 And Her Many Guises #1827239
    VoyTech
    Participant

    jbs,

    AV-H were the codes (plus green and brown scheme) when I first touched her in 1992 in Berlin.
    SZ-G was the first of the Polish schemes – from May 1997 till ca. June 1998. This was then removed for celebrations (Castle Bromwich, I think) where she was required to be without codes. I have a photo of her like this at Friedrichshafen in the summer of 1998. Then PK-K was applied in August, removed during winter 1998, I believe.

    Mark12,
    I think these are standard tapered C wing type cannon shrouds, not ‘b’ wing! I have not tried to, but I doubt if you would be able to fit a B wing one like this.
    About the short intake: when Mark Hanna first saw this wartime photo of MH434 he said he would get the intake back to this early form.

    in reply to: 609 Squadron 30/9/1940 Sqdn Codes #2097678
    VoyTech
    Participant

    According to P/O Crook’s log book R6699 is PR-L, R6922 PR-T, and R6986 PR-S.
    I also have X4471 PR-R, but I don’t recall where I got it from (may have been Crook’s log book either).
    X4560 is PR-H, shown in the after-crash photo in Chris Goss’s ‘Brothers in Arms’.

    in reply to: 609 Squadron 30/9/1940 Sqdn Codes #2098441
    VoyTech
    Participant

    Chris Goss has quoted L1065 as PR-E in his books on 609.
    The log book of P/O Crook (can be seen at the Public Record Office or whatever it is called now) tells R6631 is PR-Q and
    R6961 is PR-P.
    I am also eager to learn other 609 codes of the period.
    Adalbert

    in reply to: Spitfire MkXIII #2100012
    VoyTech
    Participant

    A PR.XIII would have 4 Brownings if converted from a Mk VB, or 8 guns if converted from a Mk IIA or Mk VA.
    Pics can be found everywhere, especially of the L1004 usually labelled as ‘the PR.XIII prototype’ (which is not entirely correct).

Viewing 8 posts - 946 through 953 (of 953 total)