ericmunkWhat I have on the famous Prewar Amsterdam-Batavia service is more than just notes, Ian. More of an incipient book ?
Both the Hagens books are THE works when it comes to KLM airline politics. It describes in great detail the effort some British bureaucrats took to get their hands on the KLM aircraft in that desperate 1940 summer, until they realised the value their experienced crews had. Things got very nasty at times with official enquiries, an arrest, a strike and lots of backroom bickering and red tape in a rapidly changing theatre. Add to that that KLM was fighting for its survival as a company, you get the picture.
ericmunkFred Weick.
Also of Pawnee and Ercoupe fame. Quite a legacy he left.
ericmunkIncidently, at least one of the KLM Lisbon aircraft still survives. The former G-AGJT (Tureluur) is sitting at Jackson MS in a derelict condition awaiting conversion to Turbo DC-3… And the former G-AGJS is rumoured to be on display in Indonesia.
ericmunkRe post 80:
BOAC then increased its frequency on the Lisbon Run to four per week, with the returning I/B flights timed to arrive around dawn, because Whitchurch lacked approach lights and had no proper flarepath. I presume that the Dutch crews were employed on these BOAC flights – again, can anyone confirm this?
Yes they were. KLM resumed ops on June 11th 1943 with the first nightflight. BOAC also independently ran a service with C-47s from early 1943 on to Lisbon, perhaps you may have confused some of the services of BOAC with that of the KLM/BOAC charter flights? The shootdown of Ibis and warweary equipment (which had flown with minimal maintenance, battle damage and in all weather, overloaded for three years) meant the regularity of KLM’s Lisbon service began to suffer. Parts were in short supply (KLM even resorted to buying a crashed Scottish Aviation Fokker F.36 to make three ‘new’ engines for the DC-2 out of four damaged examples!). It was only when three C-47A’s were delivered from early 1944 that the pressure was eased a little.
WIth the end of the war in Europe in May 1940 all civilian ops in occupied Europe were still forbidden. Most of the KLM aircraft were “transferred” to 1316 Flight, which basically was KLM flying under military supervision. A fleet of C-54s was added later that years, as was a flood of C-47s, and while the service to Lisbon from the UK remained operational fro several months, the company was well on its way to being a fully fledged airline again.
ericmunkRe post 78 (where’s that quote function?!? I have copy pasted below):
10 May: German offensive against France started, including the invasion of neutral countries Holland and Belgium -> In the first hours of the war KLM lost 16 of its 29 aircraft at Schiphol to German bombs in the early morning of May 10th, with a further 11 damaged and 2 undamaged)
——-: six KLM aircraft (5 DC-3s and 1 DC-2) arrived at Shoreham from Amsterdam, Lisbon and Naples (precise dates?) -> DC-3 Wulp was enroute Oporto to Schiphol on May 10th but was recalled to Oporto and after intense negotiations flown to Sintra and then Sintra to Shoreham 26 June 1940. DC-2 Edelvlak was stationed at Oporto for incidental charter flights. It too flew to Sintra for temporary shelter. And then Sintra-Oporto (picking up last spare parts) then Oporto-Shoreham 26 June 1940. DC-3 Ibis was on a regular service to Shoreham arriving 9 May 1940 and was held from departing as scheduled the next morning. DC-3 Zilverreiger was badly holed at Schiphol on May 10th 1940 but was repaired in between fighting and flown to Shoreham on 13 May 1940 with the intent to return the 14th with medical supplies but it was held at Shoreham. FK-43 Nonvlinder (impressed into military service at the time) was more or less stolen by a private pilot and flown to the UK May 15th, 1940 (as were some military aircraft later in 1940 and 1941). DC-3 Buizerd was flight the homebound service from Batavia to Schiphol on May 10th and was stranded at Naples . It flew via Marseille to SHoreham arriving 18th May 1940. DC-3 Reiger was stranded in ALexandria on the Batavia-service, and flew to Naples, then on to Shoreham arriving May 15th, 1940. Three DC-3s had been evacuated as a precaution to Batavia on May 7th (Pelikaan, Torenvalk, Wielewaal) and two further on May 10 (Gier) and May 11( Emoe). These five all joined the KNILM fleet in Batavia.
—— : at first they went to Whitchurch but were then relocated to Heston (date?) -> all six aircraft were flown to Ringway July 1940 for service and camouflage paint. There was no date that aircraft were all stationed at one field. Operations were spread over Whitchurch (for maintenance), Ringway (a depot and for instructional flights) and Heston (terminus point for the Lisbon line). This was also done to spread aircraft to decrease vulnerability in aerial attacks on airfields. The decision to leave Heston was made on September 20, but incidental flights later that month still left from Heston while operations were moved to Whitchurch. At the same time Ringway was also slowly suspended as a base.
—— : charter arrangements by KLM to BOAC agreed (date?) -> KLM first suggested to BOAC to fly charters for them on the lines Shoreham to Lisbon and Naples to Batavia on May 13th, 1940. The official agreements was effective 18 july 1940 with KLM providing crews, aircraft and maintenance, and BOAC insurances, oil and gas.
6 Jun : the Whitchurch-Lisbon service inaugurated by DH.91 G-AFDL “Fingal” (an intermediate stop made in France)
—– : when the stop in France was no longer possible, the greater range of the DC-3 was crucial
24 Jul : G-AGBB registered (C of A issued on 25 July)
25 Jul : G-AGBD registered (C of A issued on 29 July)
26 Jul : a trial service was operated by KLM (presumably by G-AGBB, as the only KLM DC-3 with a C of A) ->this was indeed Ibis. Four days earlier KLM had also reopened its KLM service to Batavia, this time from terminus Lydda (later Cairo in 1941) using KNILM aircraft
1 Aug: DC-3s G-AGBC, G-AGBE and G-AGBI registered (C of A: 5 Aug, 25 Sep and 17 Aug respectively)
DC-2 G-AGBH registered the same day (when was its C of A issued?)
—– : (was this when camouflage was first applied ?) -< July 1940 at Ringway
—– : the KLM aircraft flew to 10 degrees West, then turned south for Lisbon across the Bay of Biscay
10 Aug: KLM assigned responsibility for Lisbon route (4 flights per week by DC-3; 1 flight per week by DC-2) from Heston
20 Sep: KLM fleet, crew and ground staff reassigned to Whitchurch (when did they actually relocate?) -> over a period of several weeks
21 Sep: G-AGBC (PH-ALR) crashed, Heston (landing in fog; hit anti-invasion pole; no passengers aboard; no crew injured) -> aircraft reamined there for several months for spare parts use
October: 40 return flights made, carrying:
O/B: 154 passengers; 6408 kgs of mail; 3452 kgs of freight
I/B: 118 passengers; 5302 kgs of mail; 4134 kgs of freight
24 Nov: G-AGBI (PH-ARW) destroyed by an incendiary bomb at Whitchurch during a German daylight air raid on Bristol -> Ibis and Buizerd were also damaged, but repaired within days
Additionally:
– 6 October 1940: Zilverreiger limped into Whitchurch after a nervewrecking flight in thunderstorms with radio beacons going offline because of a misunderstanding that the DC-3 was an enemy aircraft. Engines quit on roll-out from fuel exhaustion. Captain was Tepas, who not two weeks before in poor weather had written off another DC-3 had had enough of the atrocious conditions they flew in.
– 8 October 1940: KLM went on strike. And announced it would not resume service on Lisbon unless radio navigation beacon use procedures were reviewed and improved.
– 23 October 1940: Lisbon service resumed with new procedures in place.
– 7 November 1940: Air Ministry suspends KLM ops into Lisbon after “complaints by British copilots over KLM captains decisions”. Sounds like a return favour for the KLM strike.
– 17 December 1940: Lisbon service resumed permanently.
– 11 September 1941: 250th service to Lisbon. AT the time there were only 41 staff including 11 Brits. And four DC-3s and a DC-2.
– 15 June 1942: 500th service.
– 15 November 1942: Ibis intercepted by Ju88s and badly damaged. Again on 19 April 1943 with only light damage. Shot down on 1 June 1943 over Bay of Biscany.
– 28 January 1944: C-47A G-AGJR/PH-AZR (Roodborstje) delivered, followed by G-AGJS/PH-AZS (Spreeuw) late February 1944 and G-AGJT/PH-AZT (Tureluur) in April 1944.
– 18 April 1944: 1000th service
ericmunkAside from the ex-Orbis example in China, I’m not sure I know of any in a museum…but I’m sure there are some somewhere.
Two in China. One in the US. One in France.
ericmunkI believe a company in the US drew up plans to produce an executive jet based on converted Vampires, no more details to hand just yet.
The Jetcraft Mystery Jet.
ericmunkCertainly one flying in Russia: http://ilyushin.org/en/press/news/ev6210/
ericmunkIsn’t there one IL-14 flying in Hungary?
ericmunkWonderful news i can remember seen that at RAFM Hendon,when will they announce what the dutch are giving in return ? (quote)
I think the Do24 was gifted in exchange for the Neptune you already have at Cosford 😉
From what I read on the NMM page, the ownership of the Do24 was transferred to the NMM last April 1st.
ericmunk#37: nearest is a KLM DC-3. Then KLM DC-2 PH-ALD “Djalak” (lost Schiphol May1940), then a CSK DC-2.
ericmunkRe post #13…. did the orange painted DC-3s actually fly from the route Amsterdam to Naples?*In Ivan Smirnoff’s biography he talks about having to take the train from Naples to Amsterdam across Germany (obviously before Holland was invaded)…France did not permit KLM overflying to Lisbon, Italy got increasingly difficult with Imperial/BOAC and I wonder if KLM would fly over Germany in late1939/early 1940
As far as I can see in my references the Naples based KLM DC-3s were all silver with black Holland titles. Only used on the East Indies line which had cone to a halt on Sept 8 1939 and been restarted on the 16th with Naples as a terminus. Germany was not allowed to be overflown, and special permission spught to ferry a further three DC3s to Naples over Germany in September to add to the fleet there. Crews and pax were ferried by train to and from Naples. Orange schemes appear only to have been used on the remaining European routes to Norway, Denmark and the UK eg. A further service to Lisbon was opened in April.
ericmunkGoblin up the Tarmac
Never mind the quote function (which btw also still works from mobile): we need a like button!
ericmunkRe post #13…. did the orange painted DC-3s actually fly from the route Amsterdam to Naples?*In Ivan Smirnoff’s biography he talks about having to take the train from Naples to Amsterdam across Germany (obviously before Holland was invaded)…France did not permit KLM overflying to Lisbon, Italy got increasingly difficult with Imperial/BOAC and I wonder if KLM would fly over Germany in late1939/early 1940
I’ll look that up.
Smirnoff was just one of many KLM crew and pax who took the train in early 1940. Train Amsterdam to Naples and vv. This was to because Naples becane the end of the line to and from the Dutch East Indies instead of Schiphol.
ericmunkSorry my error, the camouflaged DC-3 is Zilverreiger (also a bird I think)…..
My apologies, it is zilverreiger not zilvermeeuw. Shouldn’t post late in the evening… All KLM aircraft were named after a bird, the name starting with the last letter of the the registration.
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