Really? The Swiss did operate Venom, Hunter and Mirage from all that bases and I never heard that the climb-out performance was a mayor obstacle for that.
Well, maybe safety rules have changed.
But I only said what I read. The point is the F-18 uses afterburner when taking off from Meiringen which is surrounded by mountains. It doesnt do so at Payerne, where the land is flat. The reason given is it needs the additional thrust to get up fast enough.
Typhoon can takeoff (reheat/military power)
air to air (17 t): 450/900 m (has demonstrated 250 m takeoffs)
multi-role (20 t): 715/1370 m
long range strike (23 t): 760/— mNo idea on landings, but would be less than above?
How long is the typical Swiss runway?
Around 2000m.
But the problem is not runway lenght. The surrounding mountains require a steeper climb.
Doesn’t Typhoon usually take off in dry (without afterburner)?
Does that make much difference?
Good point. That actually might be EFs biggest selling point. 😉
Another point is the size. Back when the F-18C was selected, the underground hangars had to be enlarged at a significant price to accomodate the larger Hornets (compared to Mirage III/Tiger/Hunter).
If the AF doesnt want to do this again, this might be a factor. I dont know how big the caverns are, but EF, Rafale and SH are all taller than the legacy Hornet.
Arent C/D Gripens IFR capable?
http://www.gripen.com/en/GripenFighter/globally_interoperable.htm
He’s thinking about buddy refulling, i.e. using the SH as a tanker.
One thing not mentioned so far is noise pollution. In February, we vote about jet noise free touristic dependent areas. If the people agree, that means training flights over touristic Switzerland are over. People dont like the loud Hornets taking off in narrow valleys in full afterburner.
So the noise problem is pretty important.
That probably rules out the SH, among other factors.
The question about the Gripen is its dependency on American parts, without that, I’d say its a done deal. To replace the Tigers incl. Patrouille Suisse duty, as many airframes as possible are needed

A multi-role Tornado with bigger engines (higher bypass ratio, and more thrust), to make it a proper air to air fighter.
Are you sure you don’t mean a lower bypass ratio?
I used to think the same. But I checked some F-15E loadouts and was very surprised to see that the Strike Eagle frequently used light/heavy mixes in Iraq and Afghanistan. For example:
– 1x 2000lb JDAM, 3x 500lb JDAM, 4x 500lb GBU-12, 1 or 2x AMRAAM, 2x Sidewinder, 2x 2200l tanks + targeting pods
– 2x 2000lb JDAM, 4x 500lb GBU-12, 1 or 2x AMRAAM, 2x Sidewinder, 2x 2200 tanks + targeting pods
There are others like 4* 2000lb JDAM and 4 SDB on the centerline. Pretty impressive. But the F-15E is in another class with around 50% more weight so I wouldnt compare them directly.
The proposed Rafale loadout is almost exactly identical. Clearly the French are thinking of similar operational concepts as the USAF. Which is a good thing, I think. 😉
Uh, I dont think so. Which country do the French plan to invade? 😀
That’s a pretty extravagant and exaggerated conclusion, Eagle. No-one would deny that Rafale is ahead of Typhoon when it comes to progress in the A-G role, and in terms of integrating kit.
You said it yourself, the Rafale is ahead in the A/G role, because this
Typhoon’s A-G capabilities are formidable – with a demonstrated ability to carry six 1,000-lb LGBs and a full A-A load, and with Litening III.
is about the only configuration flown besides the one with 3 tanks/bombs if I remember correctly.
Anyway, I just wanted to stress Rafales advantages in the A/G arena, nothing more, nothing less.
Exactly. These impossible to enforce contract provisions allow them to sleep soundly at night…while keeping the factories and banks happy.
Governmental hypocrisy at its finest.
Probably not to sleep soundly, but to convince the left parties to agree to such contracts. Thats how it works.
The way I see it, its better we sell the “trainers” than the Chinese. 😉
Do you mean the titanium engine bay frames that Aerojet, the supplier, did not heat treat properly? The fault wasn’t in Boeing’s design. It was Aerojet’s manufacturing folks that goofed while delivering nearly 100 shipsets of improperly heat treated frames. And that issue is being resolved by inspections added to the Phase Inspection procedures.
Yes, but I was under the impression those were designed wrong. Well, thats not the case. 🙂
It also contradicts the USNs publicly stated plans, which are that the F-18E/F & F-35C will both be operated for the foreseeable future.
F-18E/Fs will have to be replaced eventually. The oldest examples are already around 10 years, which is about half the life of a carrier plane, except if the SH is built to last longer. Anyway, there will be no other plane besides the F-35 to replace the SH. As long as you dont consider UCAVs that is, but they arent real airplanes. 😀
-new config planned : 4 Mica + 3 AASM + 3 GBU-12/22 + 1 GBU-24 (and Damocles) + 2x 2000L tanks.
Pretty impressive, but I dont think thats a relly useful load. More realistic is probably a pair with one plane carrying the AASMs and the smaller GBUs, the other one the heavy stuff, maybe mixed with smaller bombs.
Either way, it leaves the EF in the dust. :diablo:
To find a “defective part by design” is rare because of the way parts are analyzed, design margins (safety factors) are applied during design, first articles are build in model shops, and tested for strength and environmental conditions. Such defects are usually the result of not understanding the environment where the part will be used (e.g. believing the pilot will pull 9 Gs on only 5% of flights instead of 90% of all flights , an F-16 issue, or buffet loads during high AOA flight exceeding the capabilities of vertical tail attachment fittings, an issue for both F-18 and F-22).
Well, it should be very rare.
The F-16 example doesnt really fit here, because it was designed good enough for the original specs. Defective by design is like the F-22 problems with the bulkhead between the engines for example.
It is far, far more common to find parts that are not manufactured according to the engineering drawing (e.g. tool broke during machining, dull tool causes rough surface finish, wrong datums during setup causes CNC machining offset and thin web thickness, voids in composite laminates, inadequate adhesive flow during composite fabrication, Etc.). As I stated above, most discrepancies are repaired/reworked, some are “accepted as is” after engineering analysis, and very few are scrapped.
Agree, thats why I think the F-15 issue is a major mistake that should have been discovered. I tend to think McDD and the USAF just agreed to accept it, maybe they came to the conclusion it was ok for 4000 hours. Of course, 4000 hours quickly became 8000…
Let me ask a silly question…
Why would the Swiss government sell armed aircraft to the Irish but be upset over Chad arming it’s aircraft?
Aside from the fact that Chad might actually use the kit it bought?
The government is mainly upset because the aircraft were being used in a questionable (to stay polite) conflict, the arming itself isnt that bad.
I’m pretty sure the Irish arent allowed per contract to fly attack missions with their PC-9s aswell. 😉
Every airplane is delivered with dozens and dozens and dozens of defects, its a fact of life. Your typical tactical airplane has 2-300,000 parts and some percentage are defective.
There is a big difference if you have defective parts by design or parts that werent manufactured correctly as happened here. First one happens all the time. Second is what quality control is for. Over a production run of several hundred, one or maybe two might slip through. But if there are 180 planes with said wrong parts, something has gone very wrong, esp. in aerospace sector. IMHO, this must not happen.
Heck, I can barely make a good landing in the Pilatus that I fly on a daily basis (i.e. the T-6A), so I can’t even imagine trying to aim and hit targets with weapons…..lol.
Not a big deal if real flying in the T-6 is anything close to my PC sim experience. I usually get killed when trying to land. 😀