And the idiot suggest solar there goes his credibility. did he do a study on how much it cost to make solar panels and how much research dollars (hence energy use) has already been sunk into it? If ethanol cost more than the energy used to produce it then you’ll see the price reflected in a similar fashion. Better still, we’re only at an early phase of biofuel technology.

Why are you ranting about solar power, read my post again and the article I posted it does not mention solar power. The point of the article I posted was that in your own words “we’re only at an early phase of biofuel technology”, all the more to pump more resources in maturing biofuels.

Yes, you sure can use Heavy Crude…what part of it cost more than light crude don’t you understand. Naturally if light crude price gets near heavy crude in terms of distillate output cost then we’ll switch to heavy crude. It’s simple economics.

Whether in the future its more financial sence to use heavy crude is not being debated, but becoming more and more oil independant is. Venezuela holds large heavy crude deposits with canada, would america want its security again to be tied with these countries, the former being very anti american.

If you could care less about Global Warming but care more about burning oil…i can see why some here seems to think burning coal is better than oil. Could it be political expediency with their own point of view? US is not the world’s largest coal user (makes even more green house gasses) and have just been surpassed as the biggest green house gas emitter (according to some measures). Naturally if you only talk about oil then that means you mean politics. This is because we are NOT running out of oil. We may be running out of cheap oil (light crude) in the next 50-100 years, but not oil in general. In fact there’s plenty of oil (heavy crude) to last about as long as I think we’ll survive on earth. The US is declining in producing light crude not heavy crude. It costs more to use heavy crude. More on that next…back to you have POLITICAL issues with burning oil for this section. Yes, we run on light crude and they mainly come from the middle east (not Venezuela and IIRC not Nigeria). But, almost every other developed country uses light crude from the middle east, in fact more than the US imports. Why single us out? Maybe oil politics/war in the middle east? So, if you have issues with American oil….I guess the problem to you is American not oil.

The point being made you cant use heavy crude oil to run your cars or transport, the modern economic setup wont run on Heavycrude. Its cheaper because there is more of it. Also the US is a net importer of opec crude oil. Nobody is just singling out the US all nations need to look at alternatives.

3.Now about “stealing” oil…on the one hand when the production of Iraqi oil is less than when Saddam was around it is used to cite American failure in pacifying Iraq, but on the other hand Americans are accused to “steal” Iraqi oil….yeah a major source of World’s oil has just been stolen. No, it’s still in the ground. So again, it shows it’s nothing else but just simply American.

Nobody talked bout stealing oil but being able to control and manipulate oil prices (cranking up production for cheaper oil) can I guess be considered daylight robbery.

Why not heavy crude? In fact heavy crude costs just a little bit less than using plants like Corn (or anything else you want to pick). That makes plants pretty efficient when light crude runs out. It is untrue that plants use more energy than the oil it produces because that would mean it’s market cost should be infinite! You see, energy is sold by how much it cost the producers to harvest it. Now think about it….why is solar panels so expensive? Because it cost that much energy usage to make and at the current state of the art for the masses would take 10 years to break even! On top of that, the reason for plants is that they have a NET ZERO contribution to the production of global warming gases. Only if you care about global warming. Then using plants would be a good thing not bad. Again if the focus is on Americans, then you’ll have issues with how Ethanol is made here….ah mainly Corn! Why Corn? Because surgar canes don’t grow well here that’s why…at least not as cost effectively. Everything can be equated to a dollar sign. Sugar canes grown in the US either won’t survive or don’t yield high water content. Corn is a proven and successful crop here. But now, Americans must be using corn so they can control the world’s’ prices on anything that uses corn. If all the feedstock is based on sugarcane then is it now “why don’t those Americans grow more sugarcane they must be controlling something somehow”

You cant use Heavy crude in transports, and a scientific study you need to put more energy to make enthonal than the energy it produces. In otherwords a NET LOSS.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

5. Ay, those Americans are ruining the world’s food supply….but when Brazil’s doing it it’s all A-OK. No issues there even though Brazil is a country with lot more poor people, but that’s okay, they’re just Brazilians. So one has problem burning food but no problem with global warming? Humm…..tough choice, but easy call when it comes to the American issue. Why don’t someone say, we’ll just grow more of it? Oh, can’t do that….why?

Actually people do critise Brasil, the fall out has affected the amazon rainforest and that itself is a disaster and could be worse later for us all as a large % of oxygen comes from there.

6. Americans have surpassed Brazil as the worlds largest Ethanol producer for energy use….but that’s interpreted as we are not diversifying our energy source and still relies on oil?

Difference with Brasil is around 40% of their cars run on it, same cant be said for the US, if you are producing the most ethonal in the world what are you exactly doing with it?, The rest of what you have written is just waffling on.

Stop being so paranoid about being picked on because your american. Its basic facts no one is only pointing the figer to america.

Actually we have allot of Domestic Oil left the problem is we have a bunch of Enviro Wennies who won’t let anyone drill for it, but these are the same folks who drive around in SUV and fly Corp Jets. As for your little Golf yea right its going to be able to haul the 36 Sheets of Plywood I purchase today and tow the flatbed I used to move my T-6D project get real.

What is allot of domestic oil left, production levels are falling every year america will come to a point soon where she has non left unless drilling in alaska starts for a new lease of life. You know since how long production has fallen, since right after WWII.

And lets be practical no one is saying to use a golf to pick up 36 sheets of plywood, but to use fuel more efficiently. Its basic common sence.

I think flex’s point is that it is in your self interest. Face it: you’ve hardly any oil at all and domestic production has been falling for years. Driving around in a V8 4×4 SUV, the overwhelming majority of which never so much as see gravel, much less going off road, burning 4x as much gas as the aforementioned Golf (which also probably has more cargo volume), purely as a fashion statement, doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The only reason you are involved with the economic and social disaster area that is the muslim world is because that is where the oil is, hence the expeditionary wars that are bankrupting your economy and the rest of the western world with it. From this point of view, I would expect that every self-respecting patriot would be jumping on the conservation bandwagon.

That is the point I was trying to make as well. It is actually in the wests own interest to reduce their dependancy on Oil. It comes with a price and that is blood, its not worth it at all. As you have mentioned all patriots should be pushing for alternatives not behaving like children saying if so and so can do it why cant we.

No reasons there at all, every country in the world uses oil. Maybe the Islamic world could set an example by not wanting to lash rape victims or kill cartoonists.

No reasons, a good joke sealord you can take your blinkers off now. I should of known to expect an idiotic remark like that. If you cant discuss in the context of the discussion then dont discuss at all. :rolleyes:

So Flex you have a problem with me owning a Ford F250 well Buddy Screw you it’s called a Free Country and I’ll drive what every I please and it won’t be some piece of crap Japanese or European Car/Truck. In your Honor I think I’ll jump in it as soon as I get done here and drive 1 mile down tot he local Lowes to get some Lumber and nails for work on the Hangers.

So here is the problem with most of you None-Americans you don’t understand our Culture nor do most of you try(and yes the same can be said of Americans about Europe)

And Yes I’m a NEO-CON ask BenG about me.

I think the gist of what Flex was trying to say is, if America is to cut back on oil consumption she has to start by making factories/transport ect run more efficiently. A v8 6 liter engine isn’t going to give you the same miles per galon as a 2 liter VW golf.

There is only so much corn ethonal you can make, and its not as efficient as the one from Sugar cains. And another thing to ponder if corn/sugar cains are going to be used to make fuel what are we all meant to eat, grass?.

So yes reducing consumption is the key or americans will pay the price through their own blood trying to secure oil in hostile and unstable regions.

You are right, just a cursory look at current US energy policy prove as much. Part of the reason that global corn prices are so high and stocks so low is that the US is turning it into ethanol and there are plenty other examples of this. It is not just a Middle East thing however, it fits nicely with the high technology and isolationist streaks that are currently running through all arms of the US government. This is really just a return to the pre 9/11 policy.

A recent report showed how more energy was required to process corn to turn it into fuel than the actual output of fuel it was producing. There was a net loss. And just today there was a study highlighting how biofuels have along way to go to develop in terms of technology to cut costs, save energy and not affect the environment.

Coming to pre 9/11 US energy policy, Bush got the National Energy Policy development group (NEPDG) to examine energy consumption and come to a solution. Good old cheney was in charge of overseeing the report dubbed National energy policy (NEP).

NEP recommended
-the expansion of oil drilling operations in alaska and domestic exploration.
-allocated limited funds for researching new propulsion systems, hydrogen fuel cells.
-relying on nuclear power.
-diversifying oil production from non gulf producers.

But contrary to all that, NEP reports also shows a chart that displays the increase in imported oil forcasted to 25.5 million barrels per day in 2020 as opposed to the 19.5 million barrels level at the time. Report mentions “support initiatives by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria, Qatar, the UAE, and other suppliers to open up areas of their energy sectors to foreign investments”- NEP chap8, pg5.

Sounds more like increase in imports than decrease.

Below table also shows gradual increase in petroleum imports by the US http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mttimus2a.htm

-production from alaska has gone down not come up.
-No more nuclear power plants have been brought online since- http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/nuc_reactors/reactsum.html
–
One thing that has happened and that is diversifying imported oil from other countries, but that does not change the fact the US is still increasing its oil consumption.

Let me quickly post something being circulated in mosques here in the UK because of bush’s visit to the mideast, tell me what is wrong with the khalifa vision, because vast majority of muslims want this. A legitimate government of the people in the region would end this war on terror as quick as it begun.