lightning F57SA submarine ‘sinks’ Nato fleet (Type 209)
September 05, 2007 Edition 2
Louis Oelofse
A LONE South African submarine left some North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato) commanders with red faces yesterday as it “sank” all the ships of the Nato Maritime Group engaged in exercises with the SA Navy off the Cape coast.
The S101 – or the SAS Manthatisi – not only evaded detection by a joint Nato and SA Navy search party, consisting of several ships combing the search area with radar and sonar; it also “sank” all the ships taking part in the exercise.
Several times during the exercise, that lasted throughout Monday night and yesterday morning, a red square lit up the screens where the surface ships thought the submarine was, but it remained elusive.
This gave Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota something to brag about when he landed on the SAS Amatola yesterday to speak to the media.
“To be able to frustrate detection by Nato nations is no mean achievement, it speaks of the excellence of the equipment we acquired for this purpose,” Lekota said.
And while this left one of the world’s strongest military alliances frustrated, it was also a sign that the group had a capable partner in Africa, Lekota said.
“With sustained interoperatability with foreign forces such as Nato we are well positioned to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that may confront either ourselves or other regions,” he said.
Lekota was quite clear that a working relationship with Nato was desired. “They have a partner of reliable capability because we are forging working relations here,” he said.
These sentiments were echoed by the commander of the Nato maritime group, Rear Admiral Michael Mahon.
“I can’t speak for what the future will hold but certainly this was valuable. Africa is a strategic continent. The freedom of the seas, energy, security, they are all critical issue to Nato countries,” he said.
lightning F57Interesting development that brings out some questions:
This ‘Raad’ ASM flies 300+ km and is light enough to be carried by a Mirage III? Is there any such missile worldover? Most ASMs with such ranges (300km+) weigh well over a 1000kgs. The Scalp EG, taurus weighs close to 1300/1400 kgs, so does the Klub, the Brahmos weighs about 2500kg. The older ones such as the Harpoons, Sea Eagles, Exocets, Kh 31s all weigh from around 500-700 kgs with corresponding ranges of about 100-200 km. So, surely the Mirage III can hardly be the platform for this weapon? Also, what kind of guidance does this beast use esp. for such huge ranges, esp. if it is to be used for anti-shipping roles as some of the reports have suggested – INS/GPS+Datalink (for midcourse) and then radar homing in terminal phase?
Anyone have any answers?
Regards,
USS.
You raise some good questions, what I had gathered was this isnt a ASM but a cruise missile for land attack purposes. I think the Pakistan armed forces are equipping it on their fighter jets, ships ect. They cant fit the Babur on planes with its current length and dimensions, so I presume they have made it smaller for the Mirages to be able to launch.
lightning F57India’s Sukhois turn it on in UK skies, turn off radars
If the radars were turned off, how well were they able to simulate the 1 v 1 combat scenarios?.
lightning F57For once Garry I agree with you. However at the same time that justifies a war against Islam. In a number of its incarnations it is clearly a violent and oppressive ideology just like facism and stalinism and how christianity used to be and indeed still is in some quarters. Islam is a threat to the western way of life, and by western I also mean Russian, Asian (Japan/SK/China/large parts of ‘modernising’ India) as it is opposed to all the values modern society is based upon.
Iv heard you come up with some bull, but that just tops it, so Islam is a threat to western way of life, exactly how is that genious? For the last 1400 years of Islam, whos been attacking who, its the west who launched crusades and the west who carried out countless invasions and attacking muslim countries in the last 100 years that would make the total wars in the last 2000 years look like a walk in the park.
And just for your information when this socalled war on terrorism started, count how many muslims died as a result of American terrorism and other terrorist attacks carried out by other terroists, and compare that with western losses. That will really tell you who really is a threat to the world.
I wasnt aware that the middle east had developed religious tolerence, equal rights for women or the computer chip, or electricity etc.
Muslim achievements are well documented in history, but your above qoute is quite ironic. These same repressive regimes in the middle east who dont give equal rights ect are supported by the socalled free west.
lightning F57Maybe even spare a thought for the Eagle pilot if he made a genuine mistake. If he’s any kind of man his nightmares wont go away anytime soon.
Would be interesting to know the thoughts of a pilot who has killed friendlies and “collatoral damage” in Iraq and Afghanistan.
lightning F57I guess that means the US owns the moon since they planted a flag there huh?
]
Well in a sense your right, besides no one else has the means to get to the moon yet to put any sort of claim to it. Would be interesting to see if in the future claims are made. Though having said that land on the moon is on sale on ebay, not sure how they work that out.
Historical reasons” is a bit weak. Sorta like the US claiming it owns the Pacific Ocean.
I think every country will use any excuse to make its claim seem more valid, im not saying putting a flag anywhere makes it right but if the territory is not claimed by anyone then its fair game for anyone.
lightning F57Interesting how Russia just goes off and claims territory in violation of just about any kind of international law and the press has nothing to say about it. Wonder how much the world would be screaming if it were George Bush saying “this formerly international territory is now ours”. If Russia is allowed to do this with nobody at the UN screaming it will just embolden China all the more for when it starts adventuring out to gather up new territory. Nice
Its funny you mention this, there is no international law on vacated territory, so Russia is well within its right to plant a flag there.
Oh by the way here was washingtons reaction to this :confused: :
A US icebreaker is being rushed at high speed from the Pacific port of Seattle to assert Washington’s claim to the North Pole. Administration officials actually fretted the fabled Arctic Northwest Passage might be used `to transport terrorists.’ While 200,000 illegal aliens slip into the US from Mexico each month, the Bush Administration worries about Islamic jihadis lurking behind icebergs. Peter Sellers could have had a field day with the Arctic fracas.
The Russians also have claims to the arctic for historical reasons and they have said to pursue their claim through the UN.
lightning F57Russia sparks Cold War scramble
Wasnt sure where to put this news thread, I guess its sort of related with Russian space and missile as these bombers are for nuclear strikes.
Russia sparks Cold War scramble
Russian bombers have flown to the US island of Guam in the Pacific in a surprise manoeuvre reminiscent of the Cold War era.
Two Tu-95 turboprops flew this week to Guam, home to a big US military base, Russian Maj Gen Pavel Androsov said.
They “exchanged smiles” with US pilots who scrambled to track them, he added.
The sorties, believed to be the first since the Cold War ended, come as Russia stresses a more assertive foreign policy, correspondents say.
The flight is part of a pattern of more expansive Russian military operations in recent weeks, says BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus.
Old practice
Gen Androsov said the strategic bombers had flown 13 hours from their base in the Russian Far East during the exercise.
“It has always been the tradition of our long-range aviation to fly far into the ocean, to meet [US] aircraft carriers and greet [US pilots] visually,” he said at a news conference.
“Yesterday [Wednesday] we revived this tradition, and two of our young crews paid a visit to the area of the base of Guam,” he said.
“I think the result was good. We met our colleagues – fighter jet pilots from [US] aircraft carriers. We exchanged smiles and returned home,” he added.
During the Cold War, Soviet bombers regularly flew long-haul missions to areas patrolled by Nato and the US.
The bombers have the capability of launching a nuclear strike with the missiles they carry
lightning F57which is precisely why the moderates need to step up… the u.s. should absolutely stop supporting the regimes such as the one in saudi arabia… they support extremism, they are corrupt and keep their people under their heal… but, a country like the u.s. can’t do it the way they did it in iraq, we’ve seen how large a failure that was… of course we would never attack saudi arabia, but what i am saying is, external pressure from the u.s. will not work… it will lead to a worse standing for the u.s. in the eyes of muslims and the rest of the world… we’ve done too much of that in the past and it’s never really worked out well (just look at s. america)… for democracy to be promoted there first needs to exist a desire for democracy which is visable internally… and the only way this can happen is for moderates in those country’s to stand up… or have within there ranks a person of the character and nature of attaturk…
The moderates do talk and are stepping up, but you see the problem with our media is they prefer giving airtime to controversial figures, this really does not help. If these people who talk out extreme views were cut out and not given the time of day it may limit other people following them. And yes its definatly high time the west if it really does believe in freedom and democrasy start to push these ideals into countries they have chummy chummy relations with. When I say this I mean stop guaranteeing security of arab royals in return for oil and other financial gains.
When you prop up dictators, royals and other elite you get regimes like the one in Iran come about, you get Saddams born and you get countless other repressive regimes. People in the Muslim world want a voice if they get one I think this would eleviate allot of their greviences and kill the terrorist recruiting grounds that alqueda and other groups feed off. What the west continues to do however is interfere in the affairs of muslim countrys this interference is antagonizing people and is giving rise to extremism.
lightning F57which is precisely why the moderates need to step up… the u.s. should absolutely stop supporting the regimes such as the one in saudi arabia… they support extremism, they are corrupt and keep their people under their heal… but, a country like the u.s. can’t do it the way they did it in iraq, we’ve seen how large a failure that was… of course we would never attack saudi arabia, but what i am saying is, external pressure from the u.s. will not work… it will lead to a worse standing for the u.s. in the eyes of muslims and the rest of the world… we’ve done too much of that in the past and it’s never really worked out well (just look at s. america)… for democracy to be promoted there first needs to exist a desire for democracy which is visable internally… and the only way this can happen is for moderates in those country’s to stand up… or have within there ranks a person of the character and nature of attaturk…
The moderates do talk and are stepping up, but you see the problem with our media is they prefer giving airtime to controversial figures, this really does not help. If these people who talk out extreme views were cut out and not given the time of day it may limit other people following them. And yes its definatly high time the west if it really does believe in freedom and democrasy start to push these ideals into countries they have chummy chummy relations with. When I say this I mean stop guaranteeing security of arab royals in return for oil and other financial gains.
When you prop up dictators, royals and other elite you get regimes like the one in Iran come about, you get Saddams born and you get countless other repressive regimes. People in the Muslim world want a voice if they get one I think this would eleviate allot of their greviences and kill the terrorist recruiting grounds that alqueda and other groups feed off. What the west continues to do however is interfere in the affairs of muslim countrys this interference is antagonizing people and is giving rise to extremism.
lightning F57Its amusing how you cannot explain how my arguments are flawed.
Wikipedia as your source basically sums up your argument. And you still havnt clarified your position whether your against the taking off innocent non-western life by western armies, please do clarify this.
lightning F57Its amusing how you cannot explain how my arguments are flawed.
Wikipedia as your source basically sums up your argument. And you still havnt clarified your position whether your against the taking off innocent non-western life by western armies, please do clarify this.
lightning F57I never said that foreign policy had nothing to do with generating terrorism but the fact is that the desire of portion of the Islamic world to create a world Islamic government is a more important factor.
No you have it wrong here, its not the world its within islamic countries themselfs they want an islamic government a united block from morocco to indonesia, that is their aim to unite all muslim countries under their way of thinking. Its muslims who are more at risk with this ideology than westerners, if the west really does want to tackle such issues then they have to promote proper democrasy in these countries and stop supporting tip pot rulers in saudi arabia and other parts.
lightning F57I never said that foreign policy had nothing to do with generating terrorism but the fact is that the desire of portion of the Islamic world to create a world Islamic government is a more important factor.
No you have it wrong here, its not the world its within islamic countries themselfs they want an islamic government a united block from morocco to indonesia, that is their aim to unite all muslim countries under their way of thinking. Its muslims who are more at risk with this ideology than westerners, if the west really does want to tackle such issues then they have to promote proper democrasy in these countries and stop supporting tip pot rulers in saudi arabia and other parts.
lightning F57paches and numerous other weapons at their disposal . Against a Hezbollah force lightly armed – does that condone massive airstrikes which killed large numbers of civilians completely unrelated to Hezbollah.
I think you live in a daydream where it’s alright if ‘Johnny Foreigner’ dies in any numbers as long as it’s not us!
#
David thats the same point I was trying to make, if likeminded people like sealordlaurance not address other issues that antagonises and gives rise to extremism and easy brainwashing we all have to sit back and wait for another attack of its kind to happen again, then ask ourselfs the same questions all over again. I dont doubt there are those that are plain evil have their own agenda but I think wars like lebanon, and Iraq act as recruiting for terrorists and other extremists. It plays right into their hands.
Sign In
