paches and numerous other weapons at their disposal . Against a Hezbollah force lightly armed – does that condone massive airstrikes which killed large numbers of civilians completely unrelated to Hezbollah.
I think you live in a daydream where it’s alright if ‘Johnny Foreigner’ dies in any numbers as long as it’s not us!

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David thats the same point I was trying to make, if likeminded people like sealordlaurance not address other issues that antagonises and gives rise to extremism and easy brainwashing we all have to sit back and wait for another attack of its kind to happen again, then ask ourselfs the same questions all over again. I dont doubt there are those that are plain evil have their own agenda but I think wars like lebanon, and Iraq act as recruiting for terrorists and other extremists. It plays right into their hands.

I never said that I only care for western lives.

And actually Hezbollah was bombarding Israel long before the soldiers were kidnapped.

Both the facts you used for that post are wrong.

You never said you didnt either. If my facts are wrong then prove me wrong, simply saying they are wrong isnt enough. Israeli violation of Lebanese territory, shelling of villages happens along the border, as it has countless times before, Hezbollah has hit back outposts, show me a source that shows Hezbollah as you put it “bombarding” northern israel, civilian areas before the whole war was triggered.

Your arguments are flawed.

Lets get another fact straight, Hezbollah didnt start the bombardment of israel with rockets, israel was the one who started airstrikes against lebanon for the capture of its soldiers. Hezbollah then responded with crude useless weapons that are more of a terror than anything else. I found it wrong for civilians on both side to be targetted, but as allways Israel showed no concern for taking civilian life and excessive use of force. Israel also vowed to destroy hezbollah, whats your point?. anyway I rather not turn this into an israel vs the arabs threat.

I’m afraid you are contradicting yourself there. You say Pakistan did not CHOOSE to buy 054/054A FFGs and ZTZ99 MBTs because they are too expensive, yet in the same breath you are claiming that Pakistan will only buy the most advanced J10 version, which surely isn’t going to come cheap either.

Also, note that the Al-khalid is not just the next price grade down from a Type98/99, its a newly designed tank that, while drawing heavily from the Type98/99 design, is not a version that the PLA fields at all. Its the same case with the SD10 v PL12; PL8 v PL9 etc. One of the main reasons the FC1/JF17 was designed at all was because the PLA top brass didn’t want CAC selling J10s to everyone.

Fact of the matter is that Pakistan has very good relationships with both Beijing and Washington. While this situation is yeilding Pakistan great benefits, it also comes with the cost that neither China or America totally trusts Pakistan not to give the other any senstive technology they might sell to Pakistan, hence why both sides tend to be reluctent to give Pakistan access to their newest toys. Its nothing personal, just politics.

plawolf,

I really dont want to divert the topic here, I was replying to sealordlawrance who was saying China didnt trust pakistan, the main jist of what I was trying to say was for Pak the main issue is cost. Baring cost aside China has its own requirement and that comes first, this was another point. And yes im sure China like every country would be reserved about giving its latest technology.

Actually, China never broke any treaties even if it did aid Pakistan with its nuclear and ballistic missile programmes. China never signed up to the missile control regime (which is only a volentary, non-binding committment anyways), and any alleged transfer to nuclear tech would have been before China signed up to the NPT. Not very ‘sportmanlike’ behaviour if that was the case, but not illegal either.

As for the rest of that paragraph. Well take it easy mate. Even the US doesn’t trust the UK enough to allow them full access to the F35 tech (big caffufle on this very forum about it not long back), so is it that unreasonable that China would have some limitations on what they are prepared to sell to Pakistan?

Ok missile treaties aside, a number of chinese companies were sanctioned by the US for delivering sensitive material for Pakistans nuclear and missile programs. This itself must show China has a level of trust for Pakistan otherwise it wouldnt go this far. Yes I also know its a geo-strategic move as well for countering India but Chinese interests in west asia have allways had Pakistan in its sphere of thinking. There will allways be limitations what countries want to sell like you gave the JSF example between the US & UK, by what sealordlawrence said does that mean the US mistrusts the UK thats why its not giving full access to tech?, this is what my point was nothing more.

All this comparing of missiles is pointless. This about design capability and technical skill/competence. Pakistan does not have it, but China does.

Just becouse Babur is not exactly th same as a Chinese missile it does not mean China did not design it. Take Al-Khalid and the F-22P frigates as an example. Effectively designed by China but distinctly different to any comparable systems in Chinese service.

These two examples also provide another good point. In both cases China is not giving Pakistan its latest technology. In the case of Al-khalid, it has a 1200hp engine whilst the ZTZ-99 has 1500hp and more armour. The F-22P is a generation behind what is currently being inducted into the PLAN.

The fact is that China designs pakistans weapons indigenous weapons systems based on outdated Chinese technology, then the Pakistanis try and call it indigenous. However we should not be surprised by this as pakistan is a third world country on the brink of becoming a failed state.

Why is comparing missiles pointless?

My point about flamer, you have just proven again, what makes pakistan a failed state?, if it was a failed state or on the brink it would be more dangerous than Iran to the world its funny how we see so many foreign leaders and businessmen visit pakistan, invest in pakistan and yet its being called a failed state by someone with nothing but sour grapes. Why dont you prove the Babur is a chinese repaint, you cant. Your theory is interesting but its not a fact.

Your theory of China offering Pakistan inferior technology because they dont want to give their latest dont stand either, why is China offering Pakistan the J-10 its latest most advance indigenous fighter, both the ZTZ-99 and latest frigates being made by China are expensive and not within the Pakistani budget. Even the type 99 tank is being inducted within the PLA in short numbers at the moment, and the Type 054 frigate, china has barely enough for themselfs how can they commit to build any for Pakistan or anyone else for that matter.

Globaltracker the news articles you have posted (even if biased being indian), everyone is very well aware of, its nothing new. No one doubts chinese assistance in pakistans balastic missile programs, and no one also doubts chinese assistance in pakistans cruise missile program as well, what is being debated here is what some members are calling it a “chinese repaint”. Instead of providing sensational news reading why dont you guys show some proof to show all the subsystems on the missile are chinese in origin. Then we can say its a repaint.

An old Janes article:

Jane’s Missiles and Rockets, Dec 1 2002 issue says:

Pakistan tests sea-skimming UAV
David C Isby

Pakistan has announced it has tested technology for a sea-skimming version of its 35km-range National Development Complex (NDC) delta-wing Nishan Mk 2TJ target drone.

The “surface-skimming module” was announced when this turbojet-powered version of the Nishan had been displayed in 2001, but this has apparently been the first test of the capability.

The Nishan Mk 2 TJ has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a 42kg takeoff weight and can carry a 12kg payload. The announcement was apparently made to counter India’s successful test in June of the BrahMos anti-ship missile being developed in co-operation with Russia.

It suggests that Pakistan is investing in technologies that would enable it to develop indigenous anti-ship missiles comparable to the BrahMos.

In the interim, however, the modified Nishan would allow Pakistan to develop countermeasures against surface-skimming threats.

Dude, just take a look at a Hong Niao and the Babur. Take a look at the TEL and the casings of each of those missiles, in particular the cap, and look at the same as in Iranian service (license produced PRC gear…), and then the obvious fact- almost every “local” item in Pak service is a license produced Chinese product, from the JF-17 (FC-1), to the Al-Khalid (MBT-2000) etc

“Dude” why dont you also take a look at the Babur and Tomahawk, they look quite similar too so now shall we say the americans gave Pakistan tech transfer for that as well. All cruise missiles look similar, have a look at the SS-N-26 YAKHONT and the Brahmos, they look similar too shall we say the latter is a repaint now as well?

I can set up a webpage and say that I have experience in this, etc- same goes for the NDC. But where are their subsystems and products? Dont you find it simply amazing that pakistan which has put up every defence item it can make on export brochures has almost nothing in terms of high end avionics, guidance, aerospace subsystems, and then you say they are locally manufactured missiles…its contradictory.

Is this your reasoning to discredit pakistans own contribution to their cruise missile program, its quite laughable why dont you have a look up on NDC and you will see what I have stated above is what they do. They make aerospace subsystems, guidiance and other avionics ect. From now on lets descredit all websites that show any defence related info because as you say any tom nick and bob can put one up.

So with little to no experience in cruise missile manufacture…Pakistan secretly develops and tests missiles, that too faster than anyone else worldwide and announces a public test once it is done…is this even realistic?
Not even one critical subsystem is known to be made in Pakistan…ok so Pak imported all of these…well what of the MTCR then? Does it make sense to run across the world and do this and get caught as compared to just depending on china which is trustworthy? Ok, what about basic infrastructure for missile design in Pakistan? How many windtunnels are there? Any supercomputers?? To conduct necessary modelling?

Cruise missiles are not something out of the extra ordinary and nearly 10 years or more of research and development is no “faster than anyone else” either. Why dont you name the subsystems not made by pakistan because you throw out acusations but cant back them up only with personal speculation. Im not a worker at NDC i dont know how many windtunnels there are, or supercomputers they use but they have a division Aerodynamics & Structural Analysis Center that deal with all that and they have wind tunnels for tests.

All words, I am sorry to say…I too can set up a webpage and claim these…but actual products? Zilch. Setting up a few rigs and “expert groups” for sys-integration does not translate into large scale sys integration or product design and development. For the PRC and India I can find dozens of small firms, large firms, Govt companies with infrastructure and track record of products…but for Pakistan we have ready made entire systems which appear from literally nowhere…come on!!

You say you can find a dozen of small- large firms involved in cruise missile development in India, China, why dont you name the indian ones and what they do and please show a made in india sticker attached to a piece of equipment to confirm its indian in origin.

I have just listed companies and organisations that are involved in development of cruise missiles for pakistan, they are no small expert groups but have large facilities, many factories, production and development facilities.

The facilities set up are miniscule compared to what are required.

Even if they are miniscule they are enough to produce the babur cruise missile. If we go by your theory of repainted chinese cruise missile, pakistan now has the neccesary infrastructure and know how in place to make the cruise missile and futher develop it so it makes no difference at all on the ground as the base and technology is there.

Finally id like to add I do believe there has been foreign technical help in the development of the missile, then you have to ask your self which country in the world dont get help.

Astra BVRAAM tested today

Is there anymore details on the test?