I was not even talking about honor killings.

The whole conversation with Jon was about honour killings and shariah, so you took over from there if we were not talking about this then what was it, little green men from mars?.

Look at your qoute from here:

It is the perception and belief of people that follow those texts that counts. In the case of Islam the perception is clearly that savagery and oppression is a good thing.

Your again generalising, im a muslim and I dont hold that perception, so where did you get that from did you carry out a poll, if so could I see the proper results?. The perception you talk of is that in the west which I have made a point to prove its wrong. You also said:

I have told you time and time again that bad things happening elsewhere does not justify some of the traits of radical Islam.

Maybe us human beings are flawed generally, having good and bad sides to us, maybe the fact that you get bad people in all societies and in all countries is a relevation to you. If your saying generally religion is a problem well there have been plenty who have not used religion to carry out mass murder, Stalin, Hitler, molosovic to name a few.

Are you still trying to brand a whole religion over the actions of a minority?.

I never said that the whole of Islam believed in this, you have obviously just completely ignored my last post purely for the sake of argument!

That said only a truly foolish individual would state this has not become an accepted part of the religion for many factions.

I didnt ignore your last post, otherwise I would not of responded. Im yet to even find radical islamic scholars/teachers ect justify honour killings. Maybe you can enlighten me here for a change or is that asking too much from you?.

The only reason honour killings has been linked with islam is because of biased news reporting, newspapers dont turn domestic violence as “christian violence” or “western family violence” or any other terms. Allot of bad things happen in muslim majority countries, the laws are very loose there and people are not held accountable. In the west the laws are stronger and people are pursued with more fever. How can one from this make such generalised assumptions?.

Your notion of just because in the west islam is percieved to support honour killings dont make the perception a reality. This itself is a fundamental flaw. Its like having a perception that a blackman can never become a leader in the west, that perception exists but does it make it correct?.

This is obviously confusing you. Whether a literal reading of any specific text states that a certain act is right or wrong is irrelevent. It is the perception and belief of people that follow those texts that counts. In the case of Islam the perception is clearly that savagery and oppression is a good thing.

I have told you time and time again that bad things happening elsewhere does not justify some of the traits of radical Islam.

No its rather confusing for you I have asked you to back up your assertion with facts but you cant, your generalising, if i start posting news pieces about how bad domestic violence in the west is getting against women and children does that mean large parts of western society are barbaric?. Your trying to link cultural and social acts that are carried out by misguided people to a whole religion, there is the problem itself.

Let me give you a quick list of how islamic scholars have reacted to honour killings:

Syria’s grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, has condemned the crime as un-Islamic.

Forty Pakistani religious scholars issued a joint fatwa in 2006 against honor killings, branding the practice as contrary to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. And

last summer Lebanon’s Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah issued a fatwa banning honor killings, characterizing the practice as a “repulsive act.”

Nowhere at all has islam preached supporting honour killings, those who do are not islamic in my eyes. Female infanticide and tribal honour killing customs predate islam, they have been around for thousands of years and continue this day.

Now you are still denying reality. Even without literal translation of the core text horrific punishments, and oppression are now standard facets of Islam.

im not denying anything, Im asking you to prove where shariah law allows the killing of women over honour, and which quranic verses support this, you cant. Theres a saying “either put up or shut up”

Il give you some general information which might enlighten you on this global phenomenon.

More than 1,000 women were kidnapped and murdered in Guatemala. Their bodies were usually mutilated and in some cases “death to bitches” were written on them. And in Juarez, Mexico, hundreds of women were kidnapped, murdered and buried. The killers remain free.

In 2006 a Catholic Italian man shot his sister to death for having a child out of wedlock. Up until 1991, men in Brazil could be absolved of killing their wives over honor.

In Yemen, a Jewish father killed his daughter after a rabbi complained that she had a child from an affair. And a Christian father beat his daughter to death in 2005 in Palestine because she wanted to marry a Muslim. Last year in Bashika, Mosul, a 17-year-old woman, a member of the Yezidi religion was stoned to death for having an Arab Muslim boyfriend.

UNICEF reports that more than 5,000 non-Muslim women are killed in so-called dowry deaths each year in India because their in-laws consider their dowries inadequate.Human Rights Watch considers dowry deaths the same as honor killings because of similar dynamics in which the victims are killed by male members of the family and because the crimes are excused or understood by the community.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. Islam is like any other religion its traditions and laws are derived from various quarters but the fact is that a particular set of codes and barbaric deeds have become associated with Islam as such they are one. Islam has absorbed these elements and now it is responsible for them.

Read again what you have written, association does not make it correct. I suggest you do abit of reading in this matter, maybe you can join Jon in the challenge and find me where shariah supports honour killings and in which country. Im also waiting for the verses in the quran that support these actions.

If you can prove me wrong I will willingly end this subject.

I asked you to provide me which shariah law and in which country it supports honour killings and you have provided me a news source highlighting how legislators in NWFP in Pakistan are trying to push for Shariah law. Im confused here can you elaborate?.

yet it happens under sharia law u know

This is a common misconception, where is the sharia law and in which country does it sanction this. You will not find it anywhere, go on I challenge you to dig it up. Shariah in its entirety isnt adopted in any single muslim country.

Wow, you honestly think there have only been a ‘handfull’ of honour killings? Without trying to sound arrogant i really do suggest you research a bit on the subject,to assist i provide you with this;

“The overwhelming majority of Muslim societies are free from such practices, although they do endure in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. According to statistics released by the United Nations in 2000 there are approximately 5,000 deaths annually from “honor” killings.”

From this page : http://www.newislamicdirections.com/…onor_killings/

Ok I used the wrong word, Handful does not sound right, lets use the 5000 figure which is horrific nevertheless. Let me again quote what I wrote with regards to honour killings

this has happened with people who take on cultural practices and are not with the time. Lack of education if you will. The actions of a few should not tarnish the majority.

if you can find a quranic verse that supports Honor killings I will change my stance on this subject. Also read the first line that you have quoted.

From the link you provided:

This practice has absolutely no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in the evolved systems of Islamic law.