lightning F57Already have, becouse unlike you I do not condone that sort of barbarity that is so common amongst Muslims.
Already explained, Iran Iraq war was between Muslims and could have been ended by Muslims so take responsibility for the savage parts of your ideology and stop blaming others.
You have explained nothing at all but shown your hatred for muslims. I dont condone violence so stop making things up again.
lightning F57So how did we prolong the 8 Year War again hmm lets see all we did is provide some uniforms and some Intel never sold them any Weapons Systems unlike the Germans,French,English,Russians and North Koreans. As a matter of fact we try to broker a peace between the two Country’s and Iran didn’t want any part of it even when Egypt try to help neither of them want to stop the war. Sir I really don’t think you know that much about Modern Middle East History.
Sir I suggest you read up again on US involvement in the Iran-Iraq war, but as this is going way off topic, the whole reason I brought up the Iran-Iraq war was to highlight deep issues both Iran & the US have.
lightning F57Hey Lighting,
Simple answer to your Israel question why not hop on the Shuttle and head across to the Europe and go to Poland and take a tour of one of the Death Camps that should be all you need to know why we do what we do. And if that isn’t enough for you then you sir can get stuffed.
I understand sympathies for holocaust victims, why does the US then not also equally support victims in rwanda with billions of dollars worth of aids. The jewish people are and will not be the only people to suffer persecution.
lightning F57No, Iran and Iraq could have ended the war whenever they had wanted. The fact is that Muslims started a war, they then fought it and continued it. It was the fault of Muslims and you are trying to blame it on America. Exactly the same as you ignoring the fact that Muslims like to lash female rape victims, stone women, kill nuns etc etc
Do you know the difference between prolong a war and being the cause of one?
If you are so deeply worried about muslim women being stoned and lashed why dont you join an organisation to champion their rights.
lightning F57No what is boring is you blaming America for Muslims killing each other rather than attributing responsibility to those who are truly guilty…….Muslims.
You are argument has been refuted.
Dont make me laugh if that is you refuting then I think you need to look up the term. America helped prolong the iran-Iraq war that is plain and simple. Since when did I say america was to blame for the war to begin with?
lightning F57Typical Muslim rambling about how all their problems are someone else fault. Try taking responsibilty for your own peoples actions. The Iran Iraq war was fought by Muslims and between Muslims, it was not Americas fault.
And typical rambling by someone who is unable to refute my argument and your probably start on your “you hate america” theme again. Its getting boring if you cant discuss stay out.
lightning F57Bush was looking for an excuse to go after Saddam and finish the job since he took office. Terrorism and WMDs were the logical excuses based on the evidence and intelligence at hand.
Yes WMD and terrorism were the logical excuses to use, I have never disputed this but my argument has been the main objective was because Iraq sat on the second largest oil reserves in the world and were being controlled by an unfriendly dictator who had shown hes willingness to start oil transactions in Euro’s and openly defy the US. Iraq had turned into a classical Iran type example for the US, close ally turned enemy.
Discredited would be not having found a single WMD. We look stupid for not being able to find anything beyond what we have found, and for not being able to control post-war Iraq, but I don’t think they were completely discredited. Also, consider the book I mentioned. Notice how the mass media, which is no big fan of Bush, has conveniently forgotten all of their own reporting on Iraq’s terrorism connections.
Look your government first used the WMD excuse to invade Iraq. Your government said that Iran had the ability to hit mainland europe in 45mins back by the brits in this. Colin provided pictures of what he said were transportable chemical weapons labs. From what was found to the big WMD noise that was created just shows how your government hasnt got a leg to stand on. Then its gone from scandal after scandal and you think they arnt discredited?.
Now what terrorism links are you refering to with Iraq, because any direct terrorist threat enmnating from Iraq on the US does not justify trying to use the terrorism argument. Saddam supported the familys of suicide bombers in Israel but not in the US. So what it your point. Remember this term terrorism is very loose, one could consider covert US action in iraq to cause instability as terrorism as well. If you have substantiated information that shows that Iraq posed a terrorist threat to the US (making biological weapons to hand over to bin laden or something) then you have a case here otherwise its another excuse being used.
The war was to ultimately rid ourselves of Saddam and attempt to provide the Middle East with a working democratic model, hopefully instilling a movement for democracy in nations such as Iran, negating the need for future conflict.
I can agree one of the secondary objectives may had been this, but think about it yourself if the US was looking to push democrasy in the mideast why does your leaders pay lipservice with your arab allies. You ask them to be more democratic they add a parliament with a woman in and still the king, or dictator holds all the power. Dont you think it makes sence in pushing allies to become democratic as they are friends to begin with than invade a country on the WMD excuse, then change it to regime change and then after come out with we want to liberate the Iraqis and give them democrasy…..hang on what happened with the WMD argument to start with?
And I say again I find it amusing how your government has the worst relation with Iran yet they are more democratic than your closest allies in the persian gulf.
Now that is something I can totally agree with, I’ve said many times before that the whole plan for post-war Iraq was asinine and didn’t take any of the ethnic or religious issues into account.
Why I brought up post-war planning is because look at it this way, if you want to invade a country and instill a democratic setup wouldnt you concentrate more on the aftermath than the war itself. Concentrating on the aftermath means not disbanding the iraqi army, letting other institutions in iraq get looted ransacked burned, if democrasy was the idea why was most institutions minus the oil ministry left to be destroyed. These should of been secured first and meetings held with local tribal elders to setup not a US interim government but an iraqi one.
Their democratic plans were not very well thought out, this is what im trying to say here. That reflects badly on the notion Iraq was invaded mainly to make it democratic.
if we wanted to do something sensible along the lines of “oil politics”, we would have made the obvious Saudi Arabia – terrorism connection and gone after them instead.
yes so why didnt you do that? how can you invade an ally, who not only the US is deeply friends with but so is other European and asian countries. I dont think invading saudi arabia would have gone down well with the rest of the world you couldnt of sold that as you sold the WMD excuse. The saudis could also have given a better fight than the Iraqis could, added with the fact you would of lost all your gulf allies in the region by attacking saudi arabia and you wouldnt of had any bases to launch attacks from. Your aircraft carriers would of had to operate from the indian ocean somehow I dont think long range operations like that would have achieved anything.
Iraq’s oil isn’t anywhere near enough to give us the influence you say we want.
I hope you do realise iraq has the second largest reserves of oil in the world.
A lot of the military forces in the Gulf are there for both OIF and OEF. The numbers during the mid to late 90s were nothign compared to what they are now that both of those operations are ongoing.
Britain, France, Russia, and others also all sell weapons to nations in the Gulf. Are they also playing oil politics, or are they taking advantage of a bunch of rich nations who want high-tech toys?
Your bases in oman, Bahrain, Qatar were there long before any action against Iraq began in 2003. Prior to 2003 there was large US bases in Saudi arabia as well. Now I can agree that bases in Turkey and Saudi arabia were to support the no fly zones before the war but what about the other bases?.
Yes britain france and others play the oil game too, but they did not initial this farse WMD war against Iraq.
Explain how supporting Israel and agitating the Muslim nations is in the interests of influencing oil. Supporting Israel, Eisenhower’s flawed legacy, had to do with countering increasing Soviet influence in Egypt during the Cold War, for one. Then there’s the UN operations after 1991 aimed at keeping Saddam down. That helped to curtail a lot of his oil exports, also not good for someone being accused of acting like a rampant, wanton oil user.
As I asked scorpain, why do you guys have to worry about who befriends israel and who dont, why do you have to give them billions in aid and arms to maintain their qualative edge over the arab states there and outright come out and say any attack on israel would be an attack on the US. If the arab states are carrying out terrorism against Israel why is it the US feels like the terrorism is on its own citizens, are israeli citizens protected under US law?.
oil politics come into play when you create a boogy man to keep your forces in the region, when there is scare mongering going on as is the case with iran it is easier to push commercial agenda’s. On the one hand your government sells your close gulf allies billions of dollars worth of equipment and on the other hand you house military bases on their soil. You dont see the problem here?
lightning F57No you list US Weapon System and I answer your question. As for the Siren you might want to start with your very own BBC reports since it was English Special Forces who found the first big stash of them.
Again scorpian a source would be good, i remember hearing about some being found but a stash that would constitute an invasion I dont ever remember that.
But you seem to not get what I’m saying now WE NEVER HELD ANYONE HOSTAGE FOR CLOSE TO A YEAR their does that make it better for you to read.
No i understand very well, what is your point? that your the good guys and they are the bad guys?, the ills between Iran and the US is something they both are equally responsible for, there is no good or bad guy here, your both wrong and both right. I listed the ills the US done with Iran you listed the ills Iran done with the US.
China Voted along with the rest of the 5 Permit to condeme both Iran and Iraq during the Eight Year War and help Saddam with selling him Missile Systems and Aircraft Parts far more then we ever did.
They condemned both when they should of condemned Iraq for invading iran. US provided intelligence information, bogus and real, to both sides, provided arms to one side (a number of scandals broke out), funded paramilitary exile groups, sought military bases, and sent in the U.S. Navy, supplied credit loans to Iraq, helped prolong the war that is the point I was making.
Prolonging the war in the end led to a million deaths, both Iran/Iraq before the war were advance and rich like developed countries after they turned into third world countries.
As for Israel true but I don’t see any other Middle East Country stepping up and doing what Egypt and Jordan has done now have we. When they all decide to stop trying to blow them off the face of the Earth then maybe we can talk about this subject but till then drop it. Actually about a 1/3 of the Resolution were brought up by other Country’s. As for Gulf War Treaty it was written by the UN not the United State so once again your Anti-American Stance comes out. Alright so when the next time an Earth Quack happens or any other major Natural Dist. Happen we’ll stay out of it. Oh and how about we just pull out of trying to stop the slaughter going on in Kenya right now oh snap thats right we are the only Country who can bring any leverage down on some of these problems because God know the Mighty EU doesn’t want to step in and do anything now. As for us causing the mess the last time I look most of the hot spots in the World come from a direct result of the British Empire let see Africa/Middle East/Central Asia yep all at one time part of the Greater British Empire
Just tell me this why is the US so fixated with israel, look at the distant between you both, there not even a major trading partner or anything on the face of it of value to the US. You talk about how only two countries in the region recognize israel, and that concerns the US because? why does it bother you who is israels friends and not, why do you guys give them billions of dollars in aid and advance weaponary? ever wondered why? please dont give me the supporting democrasy example if that is the case why isnt america supporting a number of other weak democrasies around the world. Why dont you guys keep your nose out of the area is that too much to ask?
The british empire is over and I would advocate the british government to also keep its nose out for its predecessors caused the problems to begin with.
lightning F57A deal was perfectly possible. Libya had been under heavy sanctions and had been bombed by the US, perfect example.
The amount of sorties over iraq compared to libya would make libya look like a normal “shoot em up”.
I could certainly get over it if they failed and repented.
Your probably more kind and forgiving than most would be.
lightning F57Yes they are all system that can deliver WMD or did you miss that part ofmy post or do you just don’t understand the concept of a Weapon System. It was more than just a so-called handful of shell try around 250 with Siren and another 100+ with Mustard then there were another 100 + with Bio Heads all that could be fited to SAMs and the Silkworms that were found had Bio and Chemical Heads.
Comeon Scorpian, even a car in that case can be used as a system, are you going to advocate invading germanys BMW plants?. And please provide me with some proof of your other Siren,bio, mustard gas claims.
Oh so you want to bring up real old History then find I can do that how about the fact that the whole Middle East mess wouldn’t have happen if it wasn’t for your Brits and the French in creating your little Nations like Iran/Iraq/Jordon ect. ect. as for the 50 Coup yea we did it but so did the Brit in the Middle East but then again we didn’t hold them hostage for close to a year now did we. Civilian Airline well hmm if they weren’t using it to let a F-14 follow in its wake then it wouldn’t have happen, but then again the Russian shot down all sort of stuff during the Cold War including a 747 if I recall. Yes we provide Saddam with some help but nothing compare to what the French/Germans and English provide him care to check out those items before you make a post. I’m glad you feel that holding Americans as a Picnick so the next time one of you Brits are held as a hostage we can say get over it nothing like a little picnick correct.
Your loosing the direction with this one, i mentioned american intervention in iran for the simple reason of “oil politics”. Yes the brits have also had large intervention and help topple the irani government in the 50’s, you mentioned about the hostage crisis I just showed you how your government were far from being a saint.
Yes it was support by the West but it was also supported by most of the Middle East Countrys along with Russia and China but you seem to forget that one now don’t you.
No im not forgetting that one at all, russia and china’s support if any on chinas part was mild compared to the US.
Read what I post first Sir I said if we want to take the Oil Fields then we could have done it after Kuwait was Liberated but we didn’t so like I said it wasn’t about Oil like you keep claiming just face the fact sir your out of your league on this one
Your not reading what I wrote, how could your government justify going in to take iraqi oil fields when the whole purpose of the gulf war was to liberate kuwait and disarm saddam?
Nice idea and in the Perfect Univer. this concept would happen but it isn’t a perfect concept and when any time there is some sort of World Crisus no matter what it is the World in General Call on the United States to step in and help. Your right now one ask us to invade Iraq in 2003 but the World had since the end of the Gulf War had been warning Iraq that if they didn’t follow the rule of the Gulf War Cease Fire then there would be problems hmm seem to forget that Saddam was in violation of the Gulf War Treaty but that is alright with you correct. So the next time some sort of World Crisus happen how about this we Americans tell the World to get stuff oh we can’t do that either because then all you Anti-American folks will cry that we aren’t helping you can’t have it both way.
Your quick to mention how Iraq broke a number of UN resolutions (last one did not justify war but was ambigious), israel has broken countless resolutions I dont see the US getting ready to invade her now?. And this gulf treaty and resolutions were sponsored and back by your country. Next time a world crisis happens outside the US, yes you guys should stick out of it but knowing your leaders you probably would have caused the mess in the first place.
lightning F57Not really, get Saddam to hand over a few missiles and accept a few inspections and call it a victory for diplomacy, worked in the Libya case.
Dont see why the US should have a problem with Russia having oil deals with Iraq.
Libya wasnt at war with the US or have crippling 10 year sanctions imposed through the UN, not to mention no fly zones and other things setup. Saddam was also asking for benefits which the US refused, so how was a deal possible.
Yeah and Saddam tried to kill Bush senior, so what?
So if somebody tried to kill your dad you would be open to business discussion with them?
lightning F57Material gathered post invasion revealed that Saddam had actually been pretty desperate to move towards the US as far back as the mid 90’s. He would have been perfectly happy to sign with America.
I tell you why I find this a weak argument,
-Saddam tried to kill bush senior, you really think bush junior is going to trust and sign oil agreements with hes fathers plotter?
-Iraq under saddam signed a number of big oil agreements with Russia do you think bush would want those agreements to be kept as well?
And come on think, the US for the last 10/15 years had been demonising Saddam, and then in 2003 they decide to sign oil deals with him….hmm I can see it now news headlines, america signs oil deals with saddam, that would have put both in the same boat would of been a PR disaster for the US.
lightning F57And how many days was this after the Ground War had started huh almost a week hmm sound like we were more concern about getting to Bagdad,As for the Wall Street Journal and New york Crap I wouldn’t believe anything these two piece of crap put out if they printed that GW was going to be able to run for another term I would have to see it from another credable source.
As for the Special Ops force yep nothing new there it was part of the original battle plan but like I said it wasn’t the first thing we went after and as soon as we did secure the Oil Fields we turned them over to Civilians oh forgot that didn’t you, why not just admit you don’t like us Americans its alright that your a Bitter EU person I understand maybe you should try to leave the EU and be a Real Country again instead of trying to be something that you guys aren’t, the day that Countrys became part of the Eu is the Day that European Power went to crap instead of being a real force now all you guys do is bicker with each other over rather stupid and mundan items maybe its time to scrap this grand idea of the EU and get on with your lives and stop hating America
if you choose not to believe sources for whatever reasons thats upto you, I could give you countless but that still would not be enough.
I really dont see how critisizing where I live has anything to do with this discussion. If you have a problem with people critisizing your government policies thats something for you to deal with, that gives you no right for acusing me or anyone else for being anti american. Truth does hurt sometimes, it takes a brave person to see it and true patriots are open for the truth and open for critique.
lightning F57And this is surprising becouse?
Of course the Oil fields were protected, SOC has already pointed out Saddams track record on this issue and Oil is the single greatest asset in reconstructing Iraq.
yes I know that, I was answering Scorpain because he asked me to provide proof that US forces rushed into secure iraqi oil assets.
lightning F57What do you call a WMD huh because the UN Def is this any weapon or weapon system that can deliever Bio/Chemical or Nuke. Please Note I said System not just the item so when we found Silkworms/Su-22 Frogbacks/SAMs/Mustard Gas/Nerve Gas/Hinds ect ect were these not WMD oh yea thats right you Anti War folks don’t understand anything about a Weapon System now do you.
So by your definition, an Abram tank, apache helicopters, F-16s/18s, patriot systems are also WMD’s?, that was a weak set of items you have listed there. And those discoveries of a handfull of shells with Siren/mustard gas are not able to cause the casualties your administration was drum beating about. Now had you of known Iraq had less than a handful of these and used this for justification for war you do realise how ridiculous you would make yourselfs.
Really we never held anyone hostage for nearly a Year because of some warp Religious reason hmm maybe your a friggin Iranian, last time I look only the United State has had there Embassy over run and folks held hostage in the greater Middle East. But I guess that alright to you since its very clear you don’t like us Americans maybe your a bitter French man thats it right.
Ok lets have a quick look at what you did do, topple an elected government in the 50’s, shoot down a civilian airliner, aid and abet saddam in the 10 years war he had with Iran, that makes your hostage crisis look like a picnick. And FYI I have no problem with americans at all, heck my partner is american, and this may be a shock to you but her father is involved in big defence projects in the states. Besides i shouldnt have to justify myself to you or anyone else you can make your own conclusions but as I said earlier, dont take a criticism to mean “oh he hates america” because thats very ignorant.
Really I was talking about after we had cleared the Iraqi’s out of Kuwait and had a clear road into Bagdad and the Southern Oil Fields there was nothing stop us then. As for why we got in volved simple he invade another Country and was looking to invade Saudi Arabia and turn the whole Middle East into a War Zone or do you forget that he had just got done with a 8 Year War with Iran and the rest of World was trying to stop a Third World War even the Russian and China were for this. Maybe you need a History Lesson Sherlock
Your only presenting one side of the history, lets have a quick look:
American Ambassador April Glaspie:
We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late ’60s. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via [Chadli] Klibi [then Arab League General Secretary] or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.
sounds like america does not want to have anything to do with the conflict there. The war with iran was supported by the west, so please dont play angel here.
And about the clear road to baghdad, read my post again why that would of not been exactly “kuwaiti liberation” now would it.
Hmm sound like your a tad bitter that your little Nation no longer hold the Title of a Super Power hers is an idea the next time something goes bad in the World hows about the EU step up and do something about it instead of looking to the United States to be the World Cops alright since we all know that 90% of the World Problem were caused by the British and French and there Empirer’s. Hell the Middle East would be half the trouble if it wasn’t for the Sikes/Bickle Agreement but then again I’m sure your going to come up with some sort of reason that I’m way off topic and I’m some sort of Naive American far from it Sir.
Im not bitter about the UK not being the police of the world im glad actually they arnt, but why should anyone be the policeman of the world shouldnt all countries act together properly, and not station thousands of their troops and bases in parts of the world for commercial interests. Nobody asked america too invade iraq in 2003 but she did that by her self and when you get criticized for it be man enough to handel it. If america and britain included minded their own business maybe we wouldnt be having this discussion.
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