nJayMJay
You seem to be saying that the customers should just accept this and not upset Boeing ?..substantial costs are going to be passed to Boeing (and were probably prewritten in to many contracts)..prehaps not at the levels that AI are claiming but items such as extending leases on aircraft the 787 was going to replace or the cost of leasing in aircraft…you can also be sure that if a company has to operate for an extra two years a 767 which should have been replaced by a shiny 787 they are going to try and get their extra operating costs on that 767 (i.e.extra fuel burn – 20% more,maintenance etc) for that 2 year period.
Hi Parsley
I have not suggested that customers simply shrug their shoulders and ignore the lost revenue due to the ensuing delays.
I have said that there are always alternative ways to ‘skin a cat’ rather than resorting to possibly hyperinflated financial claims against Boeing.
Negotiation with Boeing on absorbing the cost of the losses by offering preferential leasing of alternative aircraft.
The cost of the law suit alone will cripple most airlines and Boeing can drag it on until they launch and then when the rest of world jumps on the bandwagon and buys the 787 where will the antagonistic airline customers be?
Nothing is gained by heavyweight legal threats against Boeing who are probably as anxious to speed up delivery, but find their hands tied due to modern safety requirements involving repeat testing following failures.
There are bound to be cancellation clauses and lawyers on both sides will be fully aware of these but whether there are in depth legal clauses to cover delays out with the control of the manufacturer, I am not competent to comment.
This is an all new design and innovative aircraft and it is taking time for testing which is inevitable (tests had/have to be written/invented) and the learning curve in testing is currently steep on this one.
We may all get quite a pleasant surprise in a few months if she does ‘roll out’ as deliveries to customers.
nJayMClawing back money can leave business relationships very soured.
Clawing back money can leave business relationships very soured.
There are other ways to ‘skin this cat’, preferential rates on temporary alternatives with buy back options,etc.
Do the companies want to run an airline business or make war with Boeing is what it finally comes down to?
It is far better that Boeing make a very safe, innovative aircraft and when they deliver it there may be losses for a period but once the 787 is accepted for what is really is then business picks up again.
Anybody care to recall way back the disaster of the new delivery Airbus A320 (1988) crash at Mulhouse-Habsheim. Airbus have come a long way since then haven’t they ?
The old fashioned word ‘break even point’ may shift into later deliveries but for Boeing to shift into high gear of the Commercial World of aviation – so what?
Boeing make good aircraft and they will wish to keep it that way, that’s enough of a mission statement “To push the leading edge of aviation, taking huge challenges doing what others cannot do”.
Do you think that Boeing’s employees or long term customers doubt this statement?
Good customers/airlines must recognise that although the economic recession isn’t what’s directly causing Boeing’s 787 delays – the impact of ‘shoddy’ workmanship on third party supplied products makes quality assurance a very expensive and unwieldy task.
nJayMExtra Four-Month Delay For Boeing 787
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/avd/2010/12/10/05.xml&headline=Extra%20Four-Month%20Delay%20For%20Boeing%20787
Extra Four-Month Delay For Boeing 787
“First deliveries of the delayed 787 may be pushed back until June or July 2011 as a result of last month’s electrical fire on ZA002, a report in French newspaper Les Echos claims.
The report says the news was relayed by Boeing executives to Air France officials at a delivery ceremony for one of the airline’s Boeing 777-300ERs yesterday at Everett, Wash. …….
…..The Les Echos report says Boeing and its Hamilton Sundstrand-Zodiac partners on the electrical system aim “to complete corrections by the end of the year to resume test flights in January, and lead to certification in June.” However, it adds that Boeing must obtain clearance from the FAA before resuming flight tests……”
My personal opinion is that the delays and extra testing will eventually be in favour of Boeing, future customers of the 787 and primarily enhance passenger safety.
nJayMMore in today’s FT regarding ANA and Boeing
More in today’s FT regarding ANA and Boeing
Long wait for Dreamliner’s arrival
The Japanese airline All Nippon Airways, which is the first customer for the 787 aircraft, is becoming increasingly impatient about delays to the trouble-prone jet
http://link.ft.com/r/UXDMSS/NSZ0JW/O3FC8/C5H34J/6V93CE/AZ/h?a1=2010&a2=12&a3=10
I do beg the question though, “is it really trouble prone, or since there is so much innovation in it’s design, everything that’s coming through during testing is going to surely ensure making it a piece of modern design and engineering worth waiting for ?”
nJayMMore from Rolls Royce in today’s FT
More from Rolls Royce in today’s FT
Rolls costs over engine fire put at $500m
Aviation experts estimate the UK aircraft engine maker could face costs of $500m to deal with the consequences of a recent explosion in one of its Trent 900 engines
http://link.ft.com/r/UXDMSS/NSZ0JW/O…10&a2=12&a3=10
Interestingly the FT journalists obviously like the dramatic word ‘explosion’ and continue to use it.
nJayMMore from Rolls Royce in today’s FT
More from Rolls Royce in today’s FT
Rolls costs over engine fire put at $500m
Aviation experts estimate the UK aircraft engine maker could face costs of $500m to deal with the consequences of a recent explosion in one of its Trent 900 engines
http://link.ft.com/r/UXDMSS/NSZ0JW/O3FC8/C5H34J/NSOZ9O/AZ/h?a1=2010&a2=12&a3=10
Interestingly the FT journalists obviously like the dramatic word ‘explosion’ and continue to use it.
nJayMThank you for this – it’s a very informative report
Great interview here with one of the flight crew (Senior Check Captain) on QF32 including pictures of the flight deck + MFD displays
Interesting they tried replicating the system failures in the sim – but couldn’t!
The one question I ponder on is “would it have been the same with a standard two person flight crew on board rather than the experienced five they had on this occasion?”
All praise to the entire crew flight and cabin for bringing that aircraft safely back with all passengers safe.
nJayMIt’s sad when all that’s been sought is a scapegoat
It’s sad when all that’s been sought is a scapegoat.
Not much use as the real causes haven’t been clearly identified, and the overall result is that Concorde is no more.
nJayMJust looked on both Airbus and Emirates Group sites – nothing
Hi Cloud9
Both Airbus and Emirates Group web sites news pages (a few minutes ago) show only news reports nearly a week old and not a ‘peep’ about this.
It will sure be a ‘first’ if it goes ahead.
nJayMThe crew certainly need all the praise
The flight crew need all the praise the world can give them along with the remaining functioning systems FBW and conventional.
It’s also worth remembering that the other 3 RR engines functioned as without them the flight crew would not have succeeded.
Let’s see if it’s legal wars or the concentrated technical resources of quality assurance, R&D and flight crews involved that will put faith back in RR powered A380s.
The legal ‘broadside’ Qantas have fired is just an attempt to keep their accounting records in perspective and it certainly will not put the world airlines off RR.
nJayMMore in today’s FT
More in today’s FT
Publicity aversion guides events
Sir John Rose, Rolls-Royce CEO, has stamped his personality on the way the aerospace group handled sharing of information since the explosion of one of its Trent 900 engines
http://link.ft.com/r/FG6LAA/18S8Z5/UHLM2/BMT5AW/26Y8VU/HK/h?a1=2010&a2=12&a3=3
Rolls-Royce reputation dented by reticence
Many industry observers have been frustrated by the company’s lack of detail about the *explosion* of an engine on an Airbus A320 last month, which forced an emergency landing
http://link.ft.com/r/FG6LAA/18S8Z5/UHLM2/BMT5AW/M96QFX/HK/h?a1=2010&a2=12&a3=3
These pen happy journalists keep using this word “explosion”.
Rolls-Royce braced for flak over Qantas engine failure
The UK engine maker is braced for a fresh round of revelations about the engine failure that forced down a Qantas A380 superjumbo shortly after take-off from Singapore last month
http://link.ft.com/r/FG6LAA/18S8Z5/UHLM2/BMT5AW/PRCJPI/HK/h?a1=2010&a2=12&a3=3
nJayMDoesn’t say anything about being on auto-pilot
Hi Steve
Obviously it’s a newspaper report and hence doesn’t detail if the auto pilot was engaged at the time of the co-pilot adjusting his crew seat.
Strange to be doing this after the captain left the flight deck.
Some ‘holes’ in this report but the significant thing is it happened around the same period as the fatal Mangalore crash.
nJayMOnly missed out the word ‘exploded’ …
One intrepid reporter from a local TV station here reported that the Qantas A380 incident a couple of weeks ago .. the aircraft skidded down the runway with one engine completely missing
Hi Steve
In harmony with ……
Qantas is to resume some A380 services from Saturday more than three weeks after one of its Airbus superjumbos made an emergency landing after an engine exploded
http://link.ft.com/r/5F39HH/6VNES5/P…10&a2=11&a3=25
Note the dramatic journalistic word “exploded” at the end of the snippet. Yuk
Just missing out on a few dramatic descriptive words and phrases I guess. It sells newspapers and keeps the ‘drama queens’ in a job.
nJayMTouche
Looks like senior people at Spicejet have rightly taken this matter very seriously Steve, the mind boggles. Hope this doesn’t give you know who any ideas in Dublin:D
Touche – MO’L doesn’t need SpiceJet to dream up crap money saving ideas.
nJayMToday’s FT – ANA presses Boeing on 787 delay
ANA presses Boeing on 787 delayAll Nippon Airways, the first customer for Boeing’s 787, has complained of repeated delays, in a fresh sign of pressure on the maker of the world’s most advanced long-haul passenger jet
http://link.ft.com/r/NA70KK/LQVCMT/VBT5A/40RU5O/8AS9PP/AZ/h?a1=2010&a2=11&a3=29
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