nJayMToo bad that FR doesn’t fly to T5. MoL has found a solution to the problem already : no luggage at all. :dev2:. Isn’t it a great idea? 😀
He may add a potential earner, buy budget clothing while on the flight at RyanAir prices, collect on disembarking from the RyanAir clothing stall after customs/immigration clearance.
In addition see my tongue in cheek comments in previous posts –
As I said in the post about seats in place of toilets, watch the cash flow of the organisation – it maybe be already in the ‘toilet’/down the pan.
(My post of 15th June 2009, 17:53 http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91603 )
It may even be that he starts using re-furbished ‘crap’ from post demolition scrap.
(My post of 21st June 2009, 20:58 http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91809)
He is going to need a whole bunch of clover leaves to get himself out the mess.
LOL
nJayMHow long before MOL suggests converting all his baggage holds into new seating sections – double decker 737’s anyone? 😉
I like the tongue in cheek in this one.
“Standby” takes on a whole new meaning – equating to “Seat in Hold”. – “Stowaway” travel mode.
Just an image of chairs strapped in to the baggage “hold” area, and passengers told to bring thermal clothing including underwear, to be eligible to fly in the ‘hold’.
Of course any passenger deaths while flying due to extreme cold will be the passenger’s own responsibility and relatives will have to bear all costs on their demise, no compensation from MOL’s airline.
As I said in the post about seats in place of toilets, watch the cash flow of the organisation – it maybe be already in the ‘toilet’/down the pan.
(My post of 15th June 2009, 17:53 http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91603 )
It may even be that he starts using re-furbished ‘crap’ from post demolition scrap.
(My post of 21st June 2009, 20:58 http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91809)
He is going to need a whole bunch of clover leaves to get himself out of the mess.
Who cares I never use RyanAir. LOL.
nJayMYes, I saw the “Megastructures: 747 Demolition”. They guy said you must make sure about the tanks.
Here are some facts from the same documentary –
Not just the fuel but hazardous Uranium !!!
Megastructures 747 Demolition Channel 5 30 September 2008
After 24 years too old and too expensive – flown 12 times round the world
6 million pieces
AeroTurbine – Arizona
Salvaged parts £3.4 million
30% of recovered parts used in 747s
When new takes 100s of people 4 months to build
To break takes a few people 12 weeks using manuals used to construct
1st – Engines x 4
2nd – All recoverable parts for sale
3rd – Hazardous material
4th – Crush to extract aluminium, steel, copper, wire
Engines when new cost £2.5million after salvage will fetch £750,000 (£3 m for all 4 engines)
150 man hours to remove 4 engines
Recoverable parts/instruments – recalibrated and re-sold for use estimated value >£35,000
Cockpit Voice recorder, Flight Data recorder recovered from above passenger cabin at rear
Nose – Radome (normally withstands 500mph winds) weighs 90 kg after salvage can fetch £8,000
Actuators each approx. 90 kg x 10 fetch £40,000 – 2 in each wing flaps, 2 in rudder and 4 in tail flaps
5 sets of landing gear each can fetch £25,000
Even a coffee maker can fetch £1,000
Hazardous material must be removed fully – depleted uranium used to counterweight in tail for stabilization in flight. If exposed to heat during demolition depleted uranium can become radioactive. Not for smelting.
Fuel tanks must be emptied of all fuel and gas. A 6′ person can stand and walk inside the fuel tanks. 2 x 64,000 litre tanks in each wing and 1 x 64,000 litre tank under seats.
5 miles of tubing
170 miles wring
3 million fasteners
Reclaimed aluminium can fetch £15,000
Finally reduced to 6m x 6m scrap/junk
nJayMI can understand the frustration of many on this forum.
You want answers in the interests of future safety (including in some cases your own personal safety if you are flight or cabin crew).
We all want answers and it can be intensely frustrating when they aren’t able to recover essential items in this immense jigsaw.
I am sure many of us wish we could be divers, owners of deep sea submersibles and we could help in the intense search in a vast expanse of ocean. These are scarce resources given the task and area to be searched.
In the meantime try to watch a copy of (maybe in some libraries – academic or public) http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/survivorsguide/ (albeit a 2006 documentary) it shows the forensic information that can be gleaned from the control columns and rudder pedals of an aircraft under pilot/s control at the time of crashing.
Let’s wait.
nJayMHi Guys,
In the CNN report of approximately an hour ago, shows a picture of French Senator Gerard Larcher throwing a tribute wreath into waters in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on Thursday 18 June. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu…ash/index.html
I deliberately did not post extracts from the CNN report as it contains details of the state of most of the bodies recovered so far, and it points closely to indicating a high altitude mid air rupture of the aircraft.
The cause/s is what all of us I am sure are hoping will be finally pieced together for the sake of future safety enhancements.
Maligning the French isn’t getting anyone anywhere fast as there were supposedly 61 French on board 3 more than there were Brazillians.
Let’s continue to show respect and restraint.
nJayMI have just seen this on CNN
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/06/19/france.brazil.crash/index.html
In this same article –
“Paul-Louis Arslanian, director of the Bureau d’Enquetes et d’Analyses, the French accident investigation board, pleaded Thursday for the media and the public to stop speculation about the cause of the Air France crash.”
Seems a very reasonable request and let’s wait on conclusive facts if and when they are forthcoming depending on location and retrieval of black boxes and much more wreckage.
nJayMRyanair may not be the only airline having flight crew scared to declare their psychological state.
In the current economic recession it is essential that the ethics of increasing airline profits/cash flow (albeit important) must take a lesser priority to passenger safety, flight crew health and where necessary it is better to delay or even cancel a flight than risk a complete airliner with passengers on board.
If the International safety, insurance and legal ‘chappies’ get their teeth into this (if proven) they will have a ‘field day’ and Ryanair may have to install more than chargeable toilets to make any money, or close down operations.
They could try installing pedals under each seat for passengers to help keep the jet rotors turning once at cruising speed (thereby keeping fuel costs down). A true Budget airline.
nJayMThe flight is safely on tera firma and that’s primarily what matters.
From the early reports there were adequate qualified pilots on board (including reserve crew) and declaration of an emergency landing and re-routing was absolutely necessary in the case of the demise of the Captain.
I do hope the media respect the deceased and family of the deceased and try not to speculate unecessarily, and wait until an official statement is ensuing from Continental Airlines.
nJayMHmm. If they charge extra money for going to the toilet, maybe there would be money in replacing seats with toilets? 😀
A laugh a minute that would be – everyone sitting on a seat-toilet.
What a noise for neighbours to endure.
And can you imagine any ensuing ‘pongs’.
I like your ‘tongue in cheek’ humour and maybe RyanAir will soon forget the whole silly idea.
nJayMBringing this thread very soberly back on topic, it seems search teams have found more components of the A330: http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447/
Experts are now suggesting that with such large internal fixtures being found floating free, coupled with the injuries on the victims, its all pointing toward an inflight breakup. A wing spoiler has also be found and it appears to have been torn off the wing by aerodynamic forces, suggesting the wing was “flying” backwards.
I read the latest “English” language post on http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/voo447 – Thanks
The Brazillian military have committed a large number of personnel to the search operation and they must be commended for that. (their Press Release 32)
I do hope they or the other search teams find the “Black Boxes” before they stop transmitting along with much more wreckage and ideally all the remaining bodies.
It is almost essential psychological ‘closure’ for grieving relatives.
nJayMShould have watched – Megastructures: 747 Demolition – Documentary
Should watch or get a copy of Channel 5’s Documentary 30 September 2008 – “Megastructures: 747 Demolition”.
This was referred to in this section of the Forum previously http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=84793
There is always a good way and as always a yet better way in the future to do anything.
Draining fuel tanks should have been an automatic pre-cursor to demolition.
They’ll learn someday.
nJayMDo we know with respect to AF447 of the approximate 25% passengers’ remains recovered so far whether any of them had on life vests ?
Or sadly did they perish without any prior warning before they could even put them on ?
The lack of news about the other parts of the aircraft is worrying as it almost looks like 15 of a possible 30 days for locating transmissions from Black Box recorders has been reached.
nJayMThe economic recession will see the transition of passengers back to the regular airlines and although they may shed some jobs to survive they will mostly be still there when the economic recession ends.
“No frills”/”Budget” carriers have to some extent had their day.
It may have served a purpose to shake some life into the regular airlines in efficient seat sales/management, but I would anyday fly regular airline for many reasons already stated.
nJayMI wonder if the usual smoke and mirrors stuff was to hide the fact that he had sold five million of his shares in Ryanair? Did we miss this or has it been discussed already?
You may be getting closer to the real reason behind this nonsense.
Keep watching the interim financial reports, as well as check out the last two years full financial reports as unfortunately it can take a few years in a large organisation for the real lack of “Cash Flow” to manifest itself to the outside world. (As clearly seen in recent financial scandals of large banks/building societies)
Even if he manages to get Boeing to alter or manufacture a variant with necessary safety clearance on a new seat configuration (with one ‘loo’) these aircraft will not be as desirable aircraft (as Tangible Assets in his ‘books’) due to lowered resaleability.
He is on a ‘hiding to nothing’.
nJayMHi Exmpa
I think the list and order are nearly exhaustive with respect to the aviation industry………..
Also once the current ultra paranoid anti terrorist situation returns to being able to trust designers, scientists and other useful contributors [non pilots] on the flight deck again at the discretion or special invitation of the airline/technical manufacturer, then progress will be made even more safely but rapidly in technology. That means that technical ‘hiccups’ just do not have to be only reported after the fact, by flight crew they can be possibly lived in real time by the technical designers [‘boffins’]…………
One word sums it up improving QUALITY has to always be tending to infinity. NEVER ENDING.
For anyone that is interested I see a need in good airlines in the future (and in likely post recession with the possible growth of, very advanced ultra fast airliners possibly powered by low carbon emission/alternative fuels) for experienced pilots extending their skills to encompass those of a flight engineer and naturally include good systems awareness as well.
These ultra skilled personnel will be invaluable on long haul routes traversing areas not covered by radar and in cases where un predictable weather ensues.
These super fliers should be able to be (non disclosure) cleared to be aware of the advanced “road map” for engineering designs, fluid dynamic changes, software changes and be able to asses with the manufacturer/supplier all possible failure points , with likely corrective or recovery action/s.
This could form the essence of good risk analysis.
In the case of software linked or independent of other systems awareness of top level algorithms (in English), where stepping through with the software team a pilot/flight engineer would understand where (in the software design), when and how the software handles non standard events. (The ‘when’ being the most key and then the ‘how’). This can lead on to again alternatives and manual recovery/corrective actions.
If the results of 3 out of 5 different software programmes coinciding verifies the accuracy of vital systems then awareness of each algorithm (will be different for each different software application language) is vital.
Awareness that different software languages on different operating systems and different hardware can cause numerical precision variances (some more critical than others) and working towards using non rounded results free from interface or browser calculations can be desirable.
Please see a simple case in point and try it yourselves –
As a little experiment try this on your own PC (ideally Office 2003/2007).
1. Programs-Accessories – Calculator (view should be Scientific not Standard)
Use a simple 22/7=
2. Open an Excel worksheet
In cell A1 put =22/7
Make the cell width quite large
Go to Format- Cells and choose General and accept default (no option) decimal
places.
Compare result with that on calculator. (same architecture single chip
motherboard)
Repeat for –
Format – Cells and choose Number and assign 30 decimal places.
Format – Cells and choose Currency and assign 30 decimal places.
Format- Cells and choose Accounting and assign 30 decimal places.
Format – Cells and choose Percentage and assign 30 decimal places.
And then –
Format- Cells and choose Scientific and assign 30 decimal places.
In each case compare result with Calculator
A major expensive failure although no loss of human life–
“The peer review preliminary findings indicate that one team used English units (e.g., inches, feet and pounds) while the other used metric units for a key spacecraft operation. This information was critical to the maneuvers required to place the spacecraft in the proper Mars orbit.”
http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html
And where passenger less robots/UAVs successes are going –
UAV currently yes but non passenger carrying at present to my knowledge.
DARPA Desert Challenge
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge05/awardphotogallery.html
DARPA Urban challenge
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/index.asp
http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/TechPapers/Stanford.pdf
Good pilots/flight crew will be perpetual/indispensible in good airlines and airforces.
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