VoodooI think the A-10 does two things for CAS…
1) I think it has a fear factor for enemies just like the Stuka of WWII. Hearing the sound of that gun and knowing it is in the vicinity, would make any man tremble.
2) It give one hell of a morale boost to the troops on the ground. Pretty much for the same reasons. Knowing not much would survive or continue to fight after a strafing run. Seeing it doing slow twists and turns down low to come in for another past has to be awe inspiring!
VoodooWatch them “require” a second engine, no JSF, done in 1.
Yup, I can see them stipulate that as part of the decision making process.
VoodooCanada is not making an informed decision.. there has not been a competition or even a detailed RFP. It’s purely political.
Yeah I have to agree. As much as I hate to admit it, I think the F-35 would be better off for us than the Sub-par hornet. Trudeau vehemently said that he would not go for the F-35 even if it turned out to be the best. IF they were to hold an open competition, he would lose face, and that can’t happen. This interim buy will become permanent and the competition will be written to favor the Stupid bee and more will be procured.
VoodooTwo total different cases. Besides was there any problem with them getting the CF-18?
Well first it is an outdated design. And the next Aircraft we pick will be in our inventory for +40 years. Second was that the Liberals said the Conservatives didn’t do a fair and open competition. And that when they (Liberals) got in power, they would can the F-35 deal because we don’t need to stay current, and they would do said fair and open competition. Now they are just going to go with the cheapest they can get.
Voodoo@ MigL
I agree with most of what you say. They did end up buying the EH101, but for search and rescue. But the one to replace the Sea kings is an abortion from Sikorsky. That was bought under the conservatives.
And there is such hatred between the Conservatives and Liberals, they will each abolish whatever the other has done. Justin Trudeau is so adamant about not getting the F-35 that he is trying to rewrite the requirements to exclude it. He was trying to find a way of buying the super hornet as an interim aircraft to side step penalties occurring for backing out of the F-35 deal. Basically it’s the cheapest one on the market, and that’s what he wants.
VoodooWhy do you say the Rafale is best & yet rank it as the worst choice for Canada eh?
Nic
I love the Rafale. And think very highly of it.
But I think it would rank very low for not having munitions compatibility. Unless we were to sell on our stocks, and buy fully into French types. The other aircraft already have the capability to use what we have as of now.
VoodooActually every air force has to operate 2 types of plane if the trainer is counted. Usually trainers are not armed but they are becoming more and more sophisticated so arming them could be cost-effective. A supersonic fighter can also be useful to better train the pilots operating the other more powerful plane.
For the RCAF for instance, maybe they could get like 24 F/A-50 to complement the 65 F-35s.
The government already thinks the F-35 is too expensive. And you want to throw 24 F/A-50’S into the mix when we already operate the hawk?
I doubt we would replace the hawk for quite awhile. Look how long our tutors have been in service. Chances are that it will be one Aircraft and not a mixed fleet.
VoodooIt’s a good thing that there is going to be a real process now regarding the investment in fighter jets for Canada. How the whole F-35 deal have been handled by the Harper administration is just embarrassing!
Harper might not have helped, but the whole thing started with the Liberal government of Jean Chrétien. Harper was just continuing with what the Liberals started.
I have to be honest, this is starting to look like one of those “I wish” lists than a realistic appraisal of the CF-18 replacement options. There is zero chance of a split buy for many obvious reasons:
Canada is not going to want to set up separate O&S for two different platforms, two pipelines for spares, training, weapons (particularly in the case of the Rafale), simulators.
A split buy for 65-80 airframes would be far more expensive than buying more of a single type. Considering the noise coming out of the Department of National Defense about trimming defense spending, less than 65 airframes is a distinct possibility.Realistically, the defense review is not even due till the end of this year. An open competition is going to take time to draw up, review selection process, hold competition, sort bids. This could take years. Some of the options you listed above are in jeopardy of nearing the end of their production run by 2020. Considering the history of the Liberal party (and Canadian government as a whole) on the speed of defense procurement, it would be a miracle if a decision is made prior to then.
Most likely, the CF-18’s are going to soldier on until the end of this decade without a firm decision what will replace them. By that time, the options may be look different.
I agree. There will be no split buy. Whatever we decide… Will be our next fighter for a very long while.
We have a history of procurement which is baffling. In 1987 we selected the EH 101 to replace our aging sea kings by then elected conservatives. Only to be cancelled in 1993 by the Liberal government of Jean Chrétien, which cost us more in cancellation fees then continuing to follow through. Only to select a civil version for SAR in 1998. Finally culminating in 2004 with the Liberals purchasing of the Sikorsky H-92 Superhawk. Which as of today we have a couple without mission suites.
The only saving grace I see is that by the time we finally decide to buy a fighter (which undoubtedly will be the cheapest possible) the Super bug, the line will be closed down. And we might actually have to spend some money.
I would like to see one of two possibilities happen. A joint buy of either Typhoons for the Air force with the navy selecting the Type 26 Global Combat Ship. Or go Rafale with the navy selecting the FREMM class.
VoodooThanks for digging up this thread. I have just re-read the whole thing.
I really miss Obi Wan Russell. He was a never ending well of information. I have learned so much from him.
VoodooMi-24PN sucks by most accounts.
The only logic behind that is they don’t care if a few are damaged and lost, as they will be retired soon anyways.
Could they just be using those machines for now. And when they are done in Syria, Leave them for Assad?
VoodooYeah whilst much is made of the state of the Submarines when Canada purchased them off the UK the issue of integrating the MK48 isn’t as well known but seriously impacted the adoption of the Submarines.
Problems with the Upholder/Victoria class:
1) Post build defect rectification process was never finished when UK gov decided to retire class.
2) Improperly stored by the UK, not lifted out of the water and water tanks not drained, cleaned and flushed through with light oil to prevent corrosion.
3) One damaged in harbour (the infamous dent).
4) The class was gutted of spare parts due to the system commonality with the RN Nuclear fleet.
5) Reactivation required parts to be drawn back from the RN nuclear fleet and reworked, there was improper interaction with Barrow over this process.
6) Removal of significant part of the the fire control system due to Canada deciding it could save money integrating the MK48 MOD 4 torpedo.
7) Trying to fit components of the Oberons FCS to allow compatibility with the MK48 MOD 4, this work was done in Canada without proper consultation back to the submarines builder.
8) Electrical systems of one Submarine destroyed when modern shore generator was connected without consultation back to manufacturer.
There is more but it gets tiresome writing them down! The Torpedo issue is particularly crazy. The MK48 MOD 4 was already obsolete, they are now integrating MK48 MOD 7 ADCAP and ironically refitting some components of the original FCS to make that happen. When the UK sold the class to Canada the Royal Navy was retiring the MK 24 MOD 2 Tigerfish that was fully compatible with the submarine. Whilst it is hardly a stellar performer the RN regarded the MOD 2 variant as adequate and Canada could of had the entire UK stock of nearly 600 torpedos for next to nothing! That would of allowed them to keep the installed FCS and make a decision later over whether to buy an alternate torpedo and integrate it into the installed FCS.
I agree with what you wrote. I just don’t like how the Canadian government, or should I say the opposition parties spins it to sound like it was a poor choice of buy. It’s not like we were blind going into the deal. And now it taints any future procurement from the UK.
VoodooWhat an embarrassment. I really like this part of the article ” Canada’s submarines were bought second-hand from Britain for $896 million in 1998. Critics believe they’ve cost at least twice that much to fix, maintain and update to modern standards.”
Sure one had a dent in it. We knew that going into the deal. But to pull systems out of the old Oberon class and try to marry it up to the upholders. No wonder there was a fire and glitches ever since. Could we not have just left them the way they were? We actually would have gained a new capability with the Harpoon missile. And there would not be this much teething problems.
Voodooi like the ka-52 too
Mi-28 on the other hand soo ugly , it literally look like mickey mouse
I think the MI-28 looks awesome! I have always liked the look of the Hind, Cobra and now the MI-28 and KA-52. They just have this sinister and deadly look to them.
And although it is a screen shot….. That is an amazing picture of the beast!
VoodooWell, I can see your point…to a degree….but the “commonality” of weapons is moot…the Rafale is equally capable with everything we are using…as a fellow Canadian I simply cannot fathom anyone wanting the F35’s though…they simply don;t fit “Canada” very well….
Yeh, sure the SH is an older design….and as usual, Canada will end up using whatever for 40 – 50 years…and lets face it….Strike aircraft are LESS what we need, just good air defense / air patrol fighters with a secondary strike capability of some degree..
Oh sorry, I actually didn’t know that the Rafale was cleared to operate the Amraam or sidewinder. My mistake. I thought we would need a new munitions logistic system if we went that route.
And you are right that the F-35 is not what we need. It does have features I think we need to stay current longer. What with the amount being procured around the world.
With the polar caps melting and resources being found there. Also with Russia building up forces in Siberia. We need to look north and have the latest detterents available.
Thanks for posting Jay, look forward to a reply.
VoodooDefinitely yes due to commonality reasons. Yet, the SH is still primarily a striker – Typhoon and Rafale would be the most appropriate choice, IMHO.
I agree on the Typhoon or Rafale. I would prefer the Rafale but the Typhoon has more commonality with weapons we are already using. I think the Super hornet will not last for the duration we will need our new fighters for. And the excuse that it is easier to transition to the Super hornet should not be used. Eventually when we go from Super hornet to the next aircraft we will need all new training. So why not do it now? Is Boeing going to make a super, super hornet that will be easy to transition too?
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