RajanThe deveoper trials had foriegn INS system and all have been successful the failed user trials used india INS system hmm.
Wrong info by the reporter. The indigenous INS system tested earlier and was successful. These two Agni-2s failed, actually produced by BDL not DRDO. They need to improve production quality.
I was correct… 🙂
‘Agni II test will be conducted again’
Saraswat said that the Agni II ballistic missile test that failed recently would be conducted again. It was a result of poor manufacture of components. “Certain components were of poor quality and we have already alerted the manufacturers about it. The test will be conducted soon,” he said.
RajanSo here’s the question.
Considering the fact that we would have 2-3 operational carriers in a very ‘strategically’ competitive world (in relation with what India’s North Eastern Neighbor is planning), what do you think India’s carrier battlegroup would consist of?
Most of the Indian future carriers will have a good SAM coverage by itself with long range AESA radars. I guess possible CBG will be…
1 carrier
1 P-15A/P15B DDG
3 FFG Talwar/P-17/P-17A
2 P-28 ASW corvettes
1 replenishment/fleet tanker
Until 2020 you will get 1 Rajput class or Delhi class as well. Rests have to stay for defensive measures.
Rajan“Project 17 was conceptualised by the Indian Navy to design and build stealth frigates in India.
In 1997, the Indian Government approved the order for three frigates. In February 1998, regarding the same order, a letter of intent was released to the shipbuilders Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL). In 1999, the Indian Navy placed an order for three frigates under Project 17. Production began in 2000 due to the delays of design inputs for weapons suite by the Naval Design Bureau (NDB), changes in the hull steel specifications, and delivery delay of high-strength D-40S steel from Russia. Construction of the first frigate began in December 2000. In July 2001, the keel of this frigate was laid, and it was launched and named Shivalik in April 2003. In February 2009, the frigate underwent sea trials and it is expected to be commissioned in November 2009.
The keel of the second frigate, Satpura, was laid in 2002 and launched in 2004. It is expected to face sea trials in 2009 and be commissioned in 2010. Third frigate Sahyadri’s keel was laid in 2003, then launched in 2005. It will face sea trials in 2010 and is expected to be launched in 2011.”
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/shivalik-class-friga/Production start ?/2000
Construction start 12/2000
Commissioned 11/2009
9 years from production start to commissioningBy comparision:
“The German Navy started to plan a successor for the F122 Bremen Class frigates in 1997.
The concept of the replacement frigates was originally as a multi-role combatant but, by 2005 the requirement for the F125 was based on a capability to counter asymmetric threats and perform stabilisation operations with lethal and non-lethal intervention.
In June 2007, ThyssenKrupp announced the Arge F125 consortium had been contracted by the Federal Office for Defence Technology and Procurement (BWB) for four F125 frigates.
Construction is expected to start in 2011 and delivery of the first of class F125 is scheduled for 2014.”
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f125-frigate/
construction (not production!) start 2011
delivery (not commissioning!) 2014
> about 6 years from production start to commisioning“The UK withdrew from participation in the tri-national Project Horizon / common new-generation frigate (CNGF) programme for the UK, France and Italy, and the project was terminated in October 1999. Production of the first-of-class ship, HMS Daring (D32), was begun in March 2003 and it was launched on 1 February 2006 at Scotstoun. It began first stage sea trials in July 2007 which concluded in August 2007. The five-week second stage sea trials commenced in April 2008, focusing on weapon systems, radar and endurance trials and the vessel completed contractor’s trials in September 2008. Daring was formally handed over to the UK Ministry of Defence in December 2008 and the vessel the vessel arrived at her home port of Portsmouth in January 2009 for further trials prior to commissioning in summer 2009.”
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/production start 3/2003
commissioning 8/2009
6,5 years
(if looking at development, count in all the years ‘wasted’ on Horizon project)
!!!
please add little bit from you as well. 🙂
RajanIndian Army set to upgrade its weapon locating radar systems
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore December 08, 2009, 0:20 IST
The Indian Army is in the final stages of accepting for induction a newly developed weapon locating radar (WLR), designed and developed by Bangalore-based Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a senior defence research official said today.
“We have a long border. The product has been developed and is ready for acceptance. Bharat Electronics is ready to roll out the systems in bulk. The radar can look at objects from 30 kms. It can locate rockets and even give the trajectory and give an early warning,” S Varadarajan, director of LRDE, a Defence Research and Development Organisation lab, told reporters.
The Army is likely to place an order for the delivery of 29 WLRs worth Rs 1,500 crore, he said.
The foliage radar is also under development and the LRDE is looking for a collaboration. It is an airborne radar which can detect objects 20-30 kms away and can be deployed for internal security and help in low-intensity conflicts such as those resorted to by terrorists and insurgents, he said.
The radar will be ready for production in 2012, he added.
Varadarajan expects the Army to place orders with the Bharat Electronics Limited for a large number of WLRs.
LRDE is also in the advanced stages of developing a 300-km range radar for air defence applications.
“Gone are the days when radars are for specific purposes. Today a radar has got the capability for multiple functions. By 2012, the radars will be ready for commercial production,” Varadarajan said.
These technologies will be on display at the 7th international radar symposium India (IRSI) 2009 being held here during December 8-11. 😀 If anyone can get some pics…
The objective of the seminar is to provide a common platform for practicing radar scientists, engineers, manufacturers and users to share their experiences, issues and knowledge to carve out the technology path for better future, he said. Bharat Electronics, LRDE, Institution of Electronics and Telecommunication Engineers, Bangalore Centre, ISRO, HAL among others are sponsoring the symposium.
I V Sarma, director-R&D, BEL said the company is gearing up to manufacture a wide range of radars for both civilian and defence applications. The company presently has orders worth Rs 4,600 crore in hand and for this fiscal, and it plans to deliver radars worth Rs 1,000 crore, a growth of 10 per cent over the last fiscal. He said the country is likely to capture about 10 per cent of the world market for radars in the next 10 years, worth about Rs 40,000 crore. BEL has dedicated three out of 17 strategic business units to manuacture various radars, he said.
RajanThey took ‘only’ little more than seven years to approve a crucial JV! I am watching a video of MRTA/IRTA from 2003 by Irkut where Indian and Russian designers were working together.
Originally it was planned 40 MRTA for India and 60 for Russia. Now its jumped to 210, where 110 for India and 100 for Russia with option for India to buy 100 more.
Indian Panel OKs Joint Aircraft Effort With Russia
NEW DELHI – India’s highest decision-making body on security matters gave its approval Dec. 3 to the joint development with Russia of a multirole transport aircraft (MTA).
The clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security here will pave the way for a formal agreement to be signed during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Russia, beginning Dec. 6.
The plan calls for India and Russia to jointly build 210 MTAs, with Russia buying 100 and India buying the rest. The agreement will include an option for India to buy 100 more MTAs for its Army and other security forces.
Despite a 2002 memorandum of understanding to forge a joint venture to build the aircraft in India, no headway has been made on the project. The formal agreement likely will be inked during Singh’s Moscow visit, an Indian Defence Ministry official said.
Russia’s Irkutsk Aviation and Industrial Association, llyushin Aviation Complex and Rosoboronexport have decided to participate in the MTA program with India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) on an equity-sharing basis.
The Russians will finance nearly $300 million of the aircraft’s development costs, the Defence Ministry official said. HAL also will supply $300 million for the effort after getting firm orders for the 15-ton MTA from the Indian Air Force, the ministry official added.
The MTA is intended to replace the Air Force’s transport aircraft, most of which were bought from Russia. India has about 100 medium-lift An-32s and about 20 heavy-lift Il-76s.
In 2008, India signed a contract for the purchase of six C-130 Hercules transport planes from the U.S.
RajanIsn’t it strange that it is same as Green Pine but with Israeli assistance better then Green Pine? The Israeli are not the party that export a better version while they risk their nation by having inferior examples. I even bet that it has more chance of being inferior what the Israeli have.
Why not? Israelis not developed the LRTR, they were consultant for specific areas, where Indians would meet difficulties. On the other hand the three basic elements of the active phased array radar ie T/R modules, RDP and software were exclusively developed by DRDO and they have patents for those. So there is no room for Israeli export. There may be some COTS parts from Israel thats it. India initially bought two Green Pines.
Green Pine is old now. Israelis already got their Super Green Pine with 800 km range while the LRTR is a 600 km radar. They also sold it to South Korea. First basic Green Pine was developed after that LRTR developed by India, with in years Israelis again caught up with Super GP and now India challenged with LRTR-2, 1500 km. 🙂
RajanAnybody have a picture of LRTR?
It looks same as the Green Pine but the T/R modules, RDP and software. It is based on Green Pine and built with Israeli assistance but different with better capabilities. LRTR-2 will be a long range radar with 1500 km range most probably X-band. Earlier there was a pic from Aero India or Defexpo but I forgot where it is now.
RajanIndian way of shipbuilding! Navy is reportedly asking to change the way of working and building more ships. But no one can understand what actually they do in those shipyards! One of my friend after passing marine engineering joined a govt shipbuilding company, now he lives like a king! He regularly goes to the yard but do little job, hardly four to five days per month. There is no pressure from the management to work properly or working at all. He roams here and there and most of the time talks. There is nothing called corporate working culture in those shipyards.I asked him why they don’t work, he answered that most of the time there is nothing to do! Equipments come from everywhere with delays but no one bothers. What to do?:o
On Project 17
They took 12 years to deliver the first frigate! By late 1997, govt approved both P-17 and Talwar class frigates. Now where is Talwar and where is Shivalik! I know that they had to build many facilities but still there was no sign of interest to deliver them fast.
On Project 15A
Our other major project is 15A, which is progressing very smoothly. The first ship of this Project will be out in August 2011 and the next two will follow in August 2012 and 2013. The first destroyer, which was launched nearly a year and a half ago, is being outfitted at the moment.
Wrong! The first DDG was launched more than three and half years ago. August 2011? lol What about 2010 originally proposed? I will be satisfied if they manage to deliver INS Kolkata by 2015.
On Submarine Building
Less we talk about the Scorpene acquisition is better. How much time taken and how much scams are there!
On the Second Line of Submarines
Our workshops will then be ready to commence fabrication of the next lot by 2012.
Let us hope govt sign the deal before 2015!
On Future Projects
We are currently negotiating Project 15B for follow-on destroyers. While the project has been approved, we are in discussion with the Indian Navy and the ministry of defence. We are expecting an order of four ships. We are also looking forward to four frigates under Project 17A. The difference between Project 17 and 17A would be in the mode of construction. We will do ‘integrated construction’ in making 17A frigates. This is where the modernisation of the shipyard comes in.
This is because of pressure from the private sector specially from L&T and Pipavav.
On Modernisation
This is the best part. I pray they would manage to do these timely.
On Challenges
The major challenge is to bring about a change in the mindset. We have not had any delivery or commissioning of ships at MDL since 2001. And eight years is a long period. There is quite a difference in fabrication and outfitting phases of shipbuilding and the ‘Delivery’ phase.
The GRSE has better working environment than MDL. I hope that the P-17A deal should be divided between the two and the GRSE get a touch of modern modular ship building. They have already talked with DCN.
RajanWhen the ideas are too radical the researchers themselves know that it requires a lot of fundamental research before any applied research and product development can result. So they do not mind revealing the potential applications to lure funding sources to fund their preliminary research attempts at first. R&D people do a significant marketing by projecting potential applications to attract funds.
Only when an outcome is very easily possible with ironing out few niggles is the idea generally concealed. A very radical idea(requiring lot of basic research) is concealed only when a country is too sure of its R&D abilities and funding capability and wants something that nobody has.
Good point. But the largest defence project in India’s history i.e. the ATV did never ‘existed’ until recently PM MM Singh launched the submarine. So this cognitive intelligence systems was not impossible to keep secret, if not until the project is operational. At least we could keep ‘ATV never existed’ type of secrecy.
RajanBut one sceptical source says it makes little sense for India to buy a third naval fighter. “Why would the navy want to operate three different fighters? That adds to the operating costs and logistics. I think it is more likely to buy additional MiG-29Ks and wait for the naval Tejas to be ready,” they add.
lol
No one can imagine what Indian armed forces think. :diablo:
RajanNo its not just you.:)
I dont know how realistic/practical/futuristic this monitoring of soldier’s minds in real time thing is, and it might well be possible in decades to come, but it brought an old DRDO-related article back to mind. I have genuinely wondered over the years about the outcome of these projects.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1986595.stm
First of all as I said they should not reveal such projects and your answer is in the article it self…
“All of us are excited about the possibilities and do not for a moment think that the idea is crazy,” said Professor SV Bhavasar, a space scientist who has spent many years researching the Arthashastra.
“Decoding ancient texts is not an easy task but we are very hopeful of success,” he added.
Let them work on it. If they can come out with something useful by 2015 to 2020, I will be glad. The Govt of India would not sanction money for the project if it was really ‘crazy’.
RajanIs it me or does a lot of this sound like promising the stars to deliver the top of a hill?
This is not impossible for DRDO! Many countries working on it. I appreciate these undertakings by DRDO. Noetic theory and Neuroscience have lots to reveal I think. If DRDO don’t start now they will not be able to deliver them timely. Delay is now an integral part of our defence systems. When India started her space programme it was the same case but look where is we now. Same goes to LCA, Arjun and IGMDP etc. If these were not there we could not think about BMD, FGFA or Agni-V. If they can deliver an operational system by 2020 or 2025, no problem. 🙂
What is astonishing for me is, why is he revealing this? Specially when this is ‘still at an infant stage’! He did same in AI-2009 with revealing an airborne laser project that DRDO working on. Dr. Saraswat is a reasonable man. He can be called as the father of Indian BMD and Prithvi missiles. He could talk about the project just after it completed.
What confuses me is what part of a bunker will be good in ground to air?
I think the reporter missed something here. Or may be the SAM systems hidden inside the bunkers are made more shock resistant to withstand enemy bunker buster attacks. :confused:
RajanGood… 🙂
Indian Defence to outsource radar-work and battle management system
2 Dec 2009, 1642 hrs IST, Peerzada Abrar, ET Bureau
BANGALORE: With the Indian Defence sector developing the blueprint
for the latest long-range tracking radars (LRTRs), outsourcing contracts worth crores of rupees will be up for grabs. Scientific advisor to the defence minister, Dr Vijay Kumar Saraswat, told ET that DRDO plans to outsource much of the work to develop six to seven LRTRs worth Rs 6,000-7,000 crore, to outside players.
This would include everything from manufacturing ancillary gear to the sophisticated software needed to run these programmes.
This has attracted a lot of interest from companies such as Bharat Electronics, Astra Microwave, Larsen & Toubro, ECIL, TCS and Wipro. Mr Saraswat, who is also the director general of DRDO, said that they would try to tap the combined synergies of the research conducted by individual industries and the R&D carried out in their own defence labs spread across the country for the project. “Modern warfare is not going to be fought in the battle field, but in control rooms,” said Mr Saraswat.
The latest range of radars being designed will be an upgraded version of the LRTR already developed by DRDO in collaboration with Israel which are capable of detecting very small targets in the 600-800 km range and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball.
The Indian Defence stable already includes the likes of Swordfish, which has a range of 600 km, and more popular ones like Rohini and Revathi. The DRDO plans to upgrade the capacity of Swordfish to 1,500 km by 2011. The Indian defence is leveraging on the technology offered by private players to develop network centric warfare systems.
Infact, a more ambitious project the Defence sector has taken up is the Battle Management System, which provides tactical command and communication from the headquarters down to the foot soldiers.
Integrating this system involves a lot of networking of data. Defence officials said they have floated tenders for the test project of Battle Management System which currently is worth a few hundred crore which can even run up to a few thousand crore once fully implemented. “The project aims to integrate the Air force, Army and Navy”, an official said.
“This includes the development of sensors, digitally enabled weapons, information grids which will enable the efficient functioning of the weapons,” Dr Saraswat said.
Infact one of the recent fully digitised systems integrated by the defence sector is the artillery combat command and control system (ACCCS). According to Major General Rajesh Pant, VSM, additional director general information systems in the Indian Army, they have successfully inducted ‘Shakti’ ACCCS, which is a network of military grade computers which provides decision support for all operational aspects of Artillery functions from the corps down to the batteries. “We are automating this. This will be with the artillary at all levels in a year”, he said.
The defence sector is also embarking on designing and developing an UCAV (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) or combat Drone, which will not only
conduct surveillance, gather intelligence and transmit it but will also help detect the target and destroy identified objects.
“The UCAV can be controlled at the command control centres which may be situated at a different location”, Saraswat said. Even if one centre becomes defunct, the drone can be controlled and guided by other centres.
The network centric warfare systems of Indian defence will also include cognitive intelligence systems which can analyse the brain using sensors or even ultrasonic waves. This can be used in dealing with cases of espionage and army intelligence gathering. “We have begun research on at our life sciences laboratory. But it is still at an infant stage. A soldier’s mind can be monitored in real time”, he said. why is he making this public?!!!
Mr Saraswat said technology is also being used in making weapon systems more tough so that it can withstand large shock loads and develop bunker buster systems which can penetrate deep into the earth.
“This will increase efficiency in ground-to-ground attack, ground-to-air, ground-to-sea and even underwater attacks,” he said.
RajanMy view is, we should go for larger nuclear powered IAC-2.
I think if IN wants to have good carrier based battle group then bigger nuclear powered one will be prefect choice. If the could build another 37500 ton carrier in parallel then it will be OK. But after finishing the 37500 ton second IAC it will be atleast 2025 for the IN to induct a 64k ton nuclear powered carrier! So the IN did a good job by selecting a 64k ton nuke powered as IAC-2.
Read this….
Defence minister Antony, on his part, indicated that India would go in for a larger 64,000-tonne second IAC after the first one gets going. The eventual plan, of course, is to have nuclear-powered carriers since their “sea endurance” is virtually limitless compared to conventional ones.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-4205577,prtpage-1.cms
The HMS QE will be a good choice if IN predicts a war with China by 2017.
Another one…
Mehra said India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier will be launched next year and commissioned in 2014, and indicated that a second homemade carrier may also be approved.
“We are re-looking at the design. It won’t be a copy of what we have today,” Verma said.
RajanFast? Ordered 2003. The first steel was cut at Cochin shipyard on 11th April 2005.
Five years to launch a 37500 ton aircraft carrier is really impressive if you consider India’s delays in ship building. This is the first for India as well. After that there were changes in requirements. For example the AESA radars. You can compare early pics of ADS and new IAC also.
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