RajanIf Russia had forced India to buy the MiG-29K, then there would be no evaluation of the Rafale M done by the IN.
When Russia proposed India to buy Adml Gorshkov, IN was evaluating on board fighter options for that and Rafale came to the scene. But later Russia announced their ‘package’ when technical issues and negotiation started.
RajanToo busy to visit the forum by far, but what you have written in response to 21Ankush is wrong.
The IAF’s 60 odd MiG-29s are receiving the Zhuk ME. Not the Zhuk AE, not the Elta 2052 or any Selex radar.
The 50 odd IAF Mirage 2000s are receiving the RDY-2, again a MSA. Again, not an AESA.
The LCA MMR is a MSA, both the interim 2032, and the fixed one. The AESA is only planned for the MK2 around 2014-15.
The DARIN3 Jags are going to get a MSA from all thats been reported so far & most likely the Elta 2032.
The LUSH Upgrade for the Shar was again the ELTA 2032.
You read my word again…
“You may not understand but future lies in AESA not Mech. Most of the air forces and all the new IAF fighters are projected to have AESA.”
Are these Mig-29, Mirage-2000, SHAR new? Why they went for LCA with an AESA upgrade. Because IAF clearly mentioned that they will choose a future fighter not less than AESA. For the same reason, DRDO upgrading LCA’s engine to meet IAF’s ASR. So its clear that they want AESA on board new fighters. Mig-29K is a new fighter for IN.
First research about the radars in question. The Zhuk ME is a very creditable system with a range of at least 120-130 km (public, ergo understated) for a fighter sized target. It has a wide range of modes, both Air to Air and Air to Surface, including high resolution SA mapping. It compares very well to its peer, the RDY-2 which boasts similar performance.
Whatever you have said is correct. But it is told that Zhuk-ME can detect airborne targets with a five square meter Radar Cross Section at ranges of 120 kilometers. Now a days no modern fighter aircraft has a RCS of five square meter. Here is an estimation……… from F-16.net,
# MIG-29A (RCS = 5 m2):
# F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2):
# F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2):
# JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2):
# Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2):
# Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2):
# F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2):
# MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2):
# EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2):
# F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2):
# F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2)
Now just imagine how far it will be able to track a modern fighter!
Fact is the IAF would prefer a mature system which gives it an operational advantage over its peers, in a reasonable cost and within a reasonable timeframe. The same issues were considered by the Indian Navy as well.
A ‘mature’ that no one wants? Recently how many country opted for Mig-29? Mig-29 was not IN’s primary choice, it cannot be.
For the Navy especially, a slotted array radar makes more sense for scan angle considerations as they need wide area volume surveillance and have limited number of Ka-31s.
That is not the reason for opting a MS radar. New AESA/PESA also has a wide angle coverage and capable of higher resolution images at longer ranges than MS. I am not going into other advantages of AE/PESA.
A MSA is also lighter – the antenna array with its gimbal mechanism still comes in lighter than a Tx/Rx array with dedicated cooling, liquid cooling in most cases. Every bit of weight counts for a Naval fighter which has to minimize its take off weight so as to maximize the bring back weight.
A few kg heavier weight does not add any extra burden to the radar or the aircraft. I think you will choose a heavier AESA over lighter MSA sacrificing some kgs if available.
The IAF/IN are not alone either – the Captor on the EF is also a MSA and offers excellent performance despite being a MSA. Contrary to what you perceive, just having an AESA does not necessarily confer operational advantages in every case.
NIIR Phazotron is a dead horse now! There is no point riding on it. I did not say that Mig-29K is bad or impotent, just wanted to clarify following two…
1. Zhuk-ME is not a good radar for an aircraft entering service in 2013.
2. Mig-29K was not IN’s primary choice but modified to meet IN reqs.
Rajanyou’re not stating the facts here- the IN evaluated the Rafale M (there is a pic on this forum that I posted, with then CNS Admiral Arun Kumar, posing in front a Rafale M after an evaluation flight), but at that time, the capabilities of the Rafale M (F1) were not nearly as good as the ones we see now (F3 level). It didn’t justify the much much greater cost of acquisition and so the IN chose the Rafale. It was not forced into it- thats simply hearsay that the IN was forced to buy the MiG-29K.
I’ll ask Shiv Aroor to ask the retd. Admiral Arun Kumar if he could do a write up on that evaluation.
Oh dude! I also told the same story. Please read my earlier posts again. Rafale was IN’s primary choice and Russia forced them to choose Mig-29K. Russia told them Gorshkov will be sold as a package combined with Mig-29K, so IN had no choice but to go for Migs. Russians also recommended that Gorshkov as a ‘free gift’ with ‘little bit’ of $$ for upgrade and Mig-29K. But later what happened to that ‘free gift’ we all know. Admiral Arun kumar? You mean Admiral Arun Prakash, I guess.
Rajan“Endowment effect”. Whatever you have must be good, because it’s yours. 😉
Yeah, ‘endowment effect’. IN wanted Rafale with Gorshkov but got nothing more than TopSight-E (bride’s cap). lol
RajanDidn’t have to explicitly, your ability to know ahem, the “main weakness” of the MiG-29K is v.suggestive. So is the idea that the IN needs to upgrade to AESA.
USS.
Why need an upgrade if ME is so good? We are going to have Mig-29 operational onboard Vikram by 2013, so where it will stand by 2015? Only after 2 years of induction? If Vikram was in service by 2008, I had no problem.
You may not understand but future lies in AESA not Mech. Most of the air forces and all the new IAF fighters are projected to have AESA.
Good then do enlighten me.
Is it my duty to enlighten what you don’t know?!!!!! Its your duty to keep updating with past, present and future, not me….
So what exact AESA were you talking about?
You did not get what I wrote! BTW EL/M-2052 or aleast Bars-29 PESA. They were supposed to deliver the Vikram in 2008 but now they will do that in 2013, so we can expect a AESA with the Migs not ME. Its not 2008 but 2013, many countries would master AESA by then. Thats it.
Brilliant conclusion. So my comment that an AESA is not the IN’s priority as of now is evidently enough to conclude that the IN should not have Carriers. As far as reading about IN plans, I’ve read enough. AS far as “talking” to you, after seeing your ability to comprehend and write, I’d rather not.
Again didn’t get!! Its not AESA or not AESA but your thought that IN building carrier forces to fight with PAF F-16s. Thats why I told you to learn why IN actually went for three carrier groups and where they will be deployed and why. They are not spending billions of dollars to fight PAF F-16s. IAF is more than enough.
Yes, do enlighten us since you seem to know so much. And then again, perhaps you should spare us – since you understand so little.
Its ‘me’, not ‘us’. Everyone knows that. PLAN maintains a much larger force level than IN and we need technological edge to engage them. Just go through PLAN’s new projects, commissioned ships, technical improvements and above all how fast they are changing towards a modern blue water navy. Where they were ten years before and where they will be after ten years. :rolleyes:
Congratulations! This kind of knowledge should get you into the naval academy – at the very least.
😀
lol They we go! Then 99% of the forum members will get into the IN, I don’t think there are so much vacancies.
Perhaps the problem is with the groom’s attitude, the simple plain jane seemed to him ugly. But upon unveiling, she turned out to be quite the bomb, hence the excellent comment. Alas, most short sighted ones are like that – judge everything by the cover. Thankfully, the IN knows how to “fix” its raw beauties.
Swerve got it easily, you didn’t!
The groom’s attitude will never change, he was forced to accept her and she is built with that kind of character. But why should IN have to think about ‘fixing’ her beauty before they get her? They should get a new, all ‘powerful’ babe that run for long years and dominate the sky at least over the next decade, unchallenged by upcoming bigger PLAN ‘groom’. 😀
RajanIndia going to test lots of missiles with in next two to three months like Prithvi, Agni-2, Brahmos, K-15 and Agni-3…. I think they should increase the tests of the missile for smoother induction. K-15, they say a new missile not related with Shourya, to be tested for the first time. Waiting for it….
India contemplates a series of missiles tests in the next two months
Prithvi – Oct 20 – 25th
Agni-II – Oct 30 – Nov 7
Brahmos – Nov 12 – 16
K-15 – Nov last week
http://epaper.expressbuzz.com/NE/NE/2009/10/05/Article//009/05_10_2009_009_011.jpg
Prithvi, Agni-II ready for skies
Hemant Kumar Rout
BALASORE: Days after China’s display of military might, India has lined up a series of tests of some of the country’s most sophisticated missiles over the next two months.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will conduct the tests of Prithvi and Agni-II in October. The trials of BrahMos and K-15 will be held in November. And from Monday, the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur in Balasore will host a three-day target simulation exercise involving pilotless target aircraft (PTA) for the Indian Air Force. Official sources said these tests have nothing to do with China’s display. Preparations for the tests have already begun and scientists are leaving no stone unturned for the successful trials of these missiles, considered as most powerful in the country’s arsenal. Though all the tests are user-trials, the focus will be on Agni-II and K-15 missiles.
“All the four missiles have already been tested successfully from the ITR and apart from K-15, other three have been inducted in the Army. But the fresh trials will gauge the accuracy of these missiles which will be tested with some new technologies,’’ a defence scientist said.
Sources said scientists involved with Agni-II programme are working meticulously to make this mission successful as the last user-trial of Agni-II on May 19 was not up to the mark. While K-15, Prithvi, BrahMos __ all land versions __ will be test-fired from the ITR at Chandipur, Agni-II will be tested from the Wheelers Island off Dhamra coast in Bhadrak district. “The test range is ready and range integration process will start from Monday for the proposed tests’’, the sources said.
After the trials, DRDO’s next test will be India’s most powerful and longest – 3,500 km range Agni- III missile – early next year.
RajanNow Indian Army wants Javelin ATGM… I thought Indian selected Milan ADT/ER instead of Spike as man portable ATGM but from where Javelin stole the scene suddenly? I think Milan ER has a longer range!
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_india-s-next-big-buy-is-a-missile-from-us_1295087
RajanIts chubbier but not a bad looking aircraft , can you post the photo model of PAK-FA as seen at the office of Pogosyan ?
A chubbier aircraft would also indicate its ability to carry more internal weapon as it can give you more internal space.
And if no copyrights are involved the article as well 😉
I second that! 🙂
Interesting picture. Its also matches with NPO Saturn’s image.
RajanDon’t pretend that you know better, you don’t.
LOL Did you really read the post? When I said that I know better? 😮 But I am well aware of that.
The ME is excellent for now, it is obvious that in time an AESA will be better. The current Zhuk A offers little improvement over the ME other than in # of targets scanned. The IN is obviously in a position to know better – it could have v.well gone for the Zhuk A, but for reasons better known to it, has stayed with the ME.
We are not buying any new aircraft ‘for now’. You know nothing about Zhuk-A IN singed the deal in 2004 when Zhuk-A was in conceptual stage. It not ready for production yet. So don’t bring it here to compare with ME. I was not talking about Zhuk-A.
In the IOR region where it is more likely to operate, what do you expect it will face? Rafales? Shornets? JSFs? Flankers are a remote possibility but there is little to show that chinese flankers have anything significantly better than the Zhuk ME. With an RCS much lower than the vanilla flanker and a radar similar in performance, the K should be good enough.
According to your theory we don’t need a carrier at all, if we need to face PAF F-16s. IN’s future is much more than just facing PAF fighter, read something about IN’s future plans and visions as well as why do they need carriers. Then we will talk…
About China’s naval aviation you have to learn a lot rather than their current ‘vanilla’ flankers, spceally their future aircraft carriers and ships. IN not buying Mig-29K for now. You have to know about China’s way of modernization.
I suppose you would know?
I am following the Gorshkov saga way back from starting. 😀
From all indications, including a direct statement from a CNS, the MiG-29K is an excellent a/c and the order to buy 29 more only confirms the IN’s faith in an a/c that they have been critically involved in developing.
Do you know about a local Indian story? Once a guy was in with a beautiful girl who also matches him. But his elder brother forced him to marry another girl who was very ugly and quarreling! The guy asked him, “Will you marry her”? His elder brother answered, “No, I am not but you have to.” So the guy had to get married with that ugly girl. But when his friend asked him, how is your wife? He smiled and answered ‘excellent’!!! 😀 I think you understood…
RajanNo need to for roll eyes on the ME. It is an excellent set and the IN seems very satisfied with the radar and the a/c in general, they would’nt buy more otherwise. THe specs on the ME are v.v.good – as good as the Zhuk A in some ways, and probly better on FOVs. Should be more than enough to counter the Apg 68V9 on PAF 16s. But yes, later upgrades will probly see AESAs
USS.
I am well aware of ME’s capabilities. Tell me…
1. Why we need an AESA upgrade, if ME is so good? :rolleyes: IN had no other Russian option and they were forced to buy Mig-29K.
2. Who said that IN Mig-29K will face only PAF-16s?
The ME radar is the weakest part of the Mig-29K.
RajanBrahmos tests… 😀
Rajanhttp://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416099555&page=50
Zelin confirmed that the second prototype, assembled at Sukhoi’s Knaapo facility in Komsomolsk-on-Amur has been delivered to Moscow and started static tests. The flight prototype is scheduled to roll-out in November.
According to Avionics President Djandjgava, the avionics will give the T-50 network-centric capabilities, enable to use new weapons and make the pilot’s work easier with graphical displays.
The T-50’s X-band antenna will have 1500 T/R modules. The first prototype of the radar has passed bench tests. The T-50 likely to start flight trials without the radar. The radar is expected to be ready by mid-2010.
NIIP also developed L-band AESA for installation on the leading edge flaps of the T-50. The SU-35 may get it as well.
The two seat version of T-50 named as T-50UB (combat trainer). This will be a joint development project with India (HAL). The Sukhoi and HAL will develop this fighter in a parity basis. Now that has defined requirements for its version, several joint working groups have been set up, and Sukhoi and HAL discussing the degree of Indian involvement in the project!
RajanJust to confirm what I was suggesting earlier – there goes the price on the fulcrum:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/India-to-buy-more-MiG-29Ks/articleshow/5084749.cms
I think Manu Pubby was off when he considered the orginal K’s @ 1.5 billion and the new 30 @ below $ 2 billion. The original Ks (16 pieces) were around 750 mil.
So ~ 30 MiG-29Ks @ $ 1.1 billion 😮 Less than $ 40 million a pop, not bad at all. What happens when 126 birds are to be bought? The other MRCA candidates are going to have a hard time beating russian fighter prices.
1 X F-18E/F or TIffy or Rafale easily = 2 X MiG 35! :dev2:
USS.
Yeah a good deal. This might be for IAC and Vikram. What we need with K is just a good AESA other than Zhuk-ME. :rolleyes:
RajanRajan,
you seem to have misread my post. A pity, since it’s lead you to criticise it for saying things it did not actually say. For a start, you seem to have missed the word “If” in one place. Could I ask you to re-read it, please? Perhaps you’ll find you disagree with it less than you think.
Actually I anted to point towards current situation in Naxal areas (as I am from there) and in which situation IAF chie made this comment. They are crossing the threshold! I don’t support air bombing but I do support attack choppers action for fast reaction. Thats it. 🙂
RajanWell your more knowledgeable in this then I so hats off to you, i have been edumacated.
lol I just wanted to put some info about current radars in our inventory following your comments… 😮
I did not think that the Defense network had been fully integrated with a command structure or station being able to see data from not only the ATC radards but also IAF radars at any point in the country. I was also not aware that this had been connected into a net centric SAM system.
As per plan it should be commissioned by 2008, don’t know current status. At least Dr. Saraswat made a comment like that. But India did bought some new ATC radars and lot of other military radars with NCW capabilities.
Does India really have enough radar sets to give good cover?
Currently India have various types of radars required but not in sufficient number. Thats why we are going for large number of LRTR, Rohini, LLTR/LLLWR and AEROSTAT. I think with n two years we will get a robust early warning network.
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