JG

We are slowly getting closer to agreement, yes attitude has a big part to play, but attitude alone can’t magic the funding needed for private education, taking the figures as per Creaking Door, there are many families who don’t even earn the sort of money needed to for instance put just 2 children through private school.

Must agree however on the attitude of too many parents, both our daughters had stories read to them from long before they knew what we were saying and of course that progressed with helping them to read and with help wherever we could, I do remember one teacher telling us just how noticeable the difference between children who had help with reading, writing etc and those who had little or no help.

Changing that sort of attitude is difficult at best and possibly close to impossible.

JG

Careful with your big brush “leftie” comments, I am probably well away from yourself politically, but I would not support dumbing down standards for all so that no-one gets left behind, in most schools there is more than an element of streaming which some would call elitism.

Of course many of us contribute to a division based on relative wealth, you were extolling the virtues of private education over and above state education, that is solely determined by ability to pay the fees.

I like many others tried to ensure that we do the best for our children, I agree that the emphasis on university etc, is not always the best route for everyone and yes for many a more practical course would be more beneficial than studying for degrees etc, how to balance this with ensuring that the opportunities are available to all is the tricky one.

Oh come on! That’s as ridiculous a statement as saying that ‘the poor’ got where they are by wasting all their money on alcohol, drugs, cigarettes and gambling!

What are the mechanics of this ‘oppression’ of the ‘have nots’ by the ‘haves’ exactly?

So, I just become the headmaster of a state school do I; and deliberately hire crap staff so my own children, at private school, have a better chance of getting that top university place then? Or does it need a conspiracy of headmasters at state schools? Or is it a bigger conspiracy involving the school governors too? And has the local education authority been infiltrated by this vast conspiracy?

Seriously, stop perpetuating this ‘class war’ propaganda. :rolleyes:

Don’t get you’re knickers in a twist, I don’t imagine for one moment that there is an”official” conspiracy of any sort, however look at the lengths parents will go to to ensure that their children do not attend a school with a high intake from a “deprived” area, or few if any pupils for who English is not a first language, will move home merely to get the right post code for intake.

I fully realise that these parents are trying to do what they feel is best for their child, but this leaves behind those less able to engineer which school their child attends, I went to a damn good grammar school courtesy of the old 11+ exam system, but that form of selection is now frowned upon. How can we achieve a system which gives all kids equal opportunity?, again understanding fully that some will flourish and some will flounder.

I do feel that all of us, me included, contribute to a division based on wealth or “social class” (for want of a better word), fortunately when my own children attended secondary school, the local school was a pretty good school and both did well in their time there, however another school fairly close by had a poor reputation and yes, I just like others made absolutely certain that my own children had their places booked at the school of choice and didn’t finish up at the “wrong” school when the best one was full.

I am no different to the majority, possibly didn’t phrase my statement very well, but certainly I would do whatever I could to ensure that my children didn’t go to a “rough” school.

At one time my job occasionally took me into schools, the biggest difference was in pupils rather than staff, one school in particular was not good in terms of the attitude of pupils, the problem goes beyond schools, teachers or the system, but how do we change it?

You refer to those who cannot afford fees and uniforms etc. Many in that category will spend their cash on drink, holidays, smoking and the latest electronic gadgetry. It depends on ones priorities. It is remarkable how money can be found for gratification and not for education.

If we want to level up the playing field we have to somehow inculcate the right atitudes to education among the broad mass of the population. Only then will State schools become generally the centers of excellence that all of us wish for. If we don’t do something, then the observations of the OECD will become even more disturbing.

Never fails to amaze that some have this naive assumption that those who can’t “afford” whatever, are only in that situation because they waste their money in other areas, does it never occur to too many that there are people out there who don’t receive enough cash to survive on let alone “waste” it.

Yes there is an attitude problem with some, changing that is going to be some job, also, please remember many of the “haves” do not want the “have nots” to achieve anything, more, better educated youngsters leaving our schools will put pressure on further education and the better jobs/careers.

Again must agree in part with your comments as to those not wishing to learn, from the BBC, picked up a piece showing that the gap in academic and skills of teenage NEETS in this country and their working peers is one of the biggest in Europe. it is also reckoned that 50% or more of teenage NEETS are not actively seeking work or trying to improve their situation, basically we have a small hard core of youngsters who couldn’t care less about their situation, that is so sad and a total waste.

John

Most of your last post is indicative of a wealth divide rather than an ability divide, of course those parents who have the wherewithal to afford private education fees will also ensure that their kids are well fed and clothed, remember the state schools have an obligation to take everyone within their catchment area, no chance to pick and chose who they admit, some of those parents may well be struggling financially and yes there will also be some who have little or no regard for education or teachers, but to then use this to castigate everyone in the state system is totally wrong.

However, what do you suggest? private education for everyone? those who simply can’t afford the fees and uniforms etc, be provided for to give a level playing field?

Personally I went to a very good Grammar School courtesy of the old 11+ exam system, this particular school still took a number of fee paying boarders, this may shock you, but the boarders were generally the poorer performers both academically and in sports, athletics etc.

In this case all pupils had the same teachers and lessons, the boarders had the advantage of supervised homework with help at hand, plus after hours access to tennis courts, swimming pool, gym, playing fields, these didn’t have the desired effect.

Sadly had the same experience with BHF. Subscribed to give £5 per month. When the begging letters started I cancelled.

Repeat your experience, set up a DD with a charity, then the letters and phone calls asking for more, cancelled my subscription, very quickly a “rep” on the phone clearly trying to get me back on board, without any bad language, explained very clearly that I didn’t have a problem, but they were the problem.

Tommy and Mary have been together for 56 years, they have 4 sons, 3 successful healthy fit men who have done well are now married with family of their own, the youngest was always a smaller, sickly child and still lives at home, but time has caught up with Tommy and his end is near, Tommy says, we have had a good life Mary, just one little thing has always bothered me, tell me before I go, is our youngest my son?, Mary says yes Tommy he is your son, with that Tommy whispers his thanks and slips away.

The priest has been stood by during this and says to Mary, now Mary you wouldn’t have lied to a dying man would you?, Mary answers, certainly not Father, just glad he didn’t ask about the other 3.

Yes, exactly!

How can it be a zero-sum investment if millions of people end-up owning something that they cannot ‘afford’; something the government doesn’t own yet provided on easy terms?

And what about those on income-support or housing-benefit; in those cases the government pays for somebody to rent-to-buy a property from the government…

…there is another way to describe that…..a free house!!!

As regards housing benefit etc, currently we have the situation where the taxpayer shovels cash into private landlord’s pockets, very often for some substandard housing, we not only give those on benefits a roof over their heads, but also pay the mortgage for a private landlord, still a free house. At least with council funded rented accommodation, the council still owns the house that they pay for.