insomnia.delhiWow,since when did we start calling a Block 52 F-16 with Sniper pods, JDAMs, JHMCS and APG-68 V(9) “Legacy”!?
Granted E-2 is not a revolutionary system, however it has still not been cleared, you have no evidence for this.
Am sure to pass on your kind words to Barack! :dev2:
APG-68 V(9) is a leagacy mechanical scan array radar, APG-80 radar is the current tech. and SABR is a AESA front end upgrade.
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f16aesaradar/
Other than the primary sensor (radar) The block52+ package itself has a evolved version the block 60, and a further evolved version the 16IN in MMRCA, now you can tell how dated these planes are by this fact, US is willing to do a massive technology transfer, which will include the software and hardware for the F-16IN to India.
Agreements to manufacture components of the APG-68 V(9) by Indian companies have already been signed, to show that similar steps would be taken with the AN/APG-80.
Northrop Grumman Corp. selected Bangalore-based Bharat Electronics Ltd. and Dynamatic Technologies Ltd. to manufacture components of the F-16
APG-68(V)9 fire control radar as part of a broader initiative to engage Indian industry as strategic business partners.
E-2D is being perused with US government permission and it has been cleared to all stages till now, there will be no notice till India sends a request for quotation/proposal or starts the FMS route, there are absolutely no reasons to see a problem in the approval of the request if IN intends to ask for a actual quotation. They do require permissions to respond to request for Information on military systems.
No one can clear something for which no quotation or proposal has been asked for, neither thorough a tender or through government to government sale. You can however search for quotes by the companies officials on google.
insomnia.delhiM777, P-8, HARPOONS, C-17s are by no way game changers. F-35 is.
E-2, no deal signed yet, so wanna check FACTS before you and I debate?
F-35 is as much a game changer as any other weapon system on offer w.r.t Pakistan, the current F-16s being delivered to Pakistan have legacy avionics compared to the two contenders on MMRCA?
E-2D has been cleared for all the stages till now, just like the MMRCA, the deal depends on India being ready to buy it, and its not a revolutionary system.
Again, I knew going into this would derail the thread, so we should stop.
Rest assured the priority of the US government is a smooth withdrawl. They will not allow an arms sale derail this, on the contrary, recent US actions have shown very little regard for what India thinks.
Well its not really derailing the thread, as long as we keep fantasy out of it.
I think you near about overlooked all that i posted, US is already selling every commercially available military equipment to India, and US firms have responded to request for information tenders for the 35 with the approval of US gov.
The Pakistan wont allow it argument has no basis in reality.
Now you actually claim US has not cleared AEGIS and PAC-3 as India do not want it!!!!???
Do you read what you write?
USA can not clear something for sale when no one is buying it. It can however clear its defence industry to market its products to friendly nations.
No F-35 for India. Period.
OK, no F-35 for India, hey do say hello to Obama the next time you talk to him. 😀
insomnia.delhiI will say this, if in 2017 Pakistan threatens a absolute blockage of all supplies and if USA and European troops are still present in enough numbers on the ground to require supplies that can not be sent through air (current signs pointing to a heavily reduced military presence by 2012/15).
Then yes there is a chance that it might be able to extract more military and economic aid from them as a response to this single military equipment sale, heck they have just done it the last month, however it(Pakistan) wont be able to change their(US and European) policy in the region as long as its dependent on them.
insomnia.delhiOK, if you want me to, but one of the reasons I was going to mentioned you actually hinted at yourself.
Pakistan would never accept F-35s being delivered by the US to India.
As long as US needs Pakistan, you can be assured a F-35 sale will nevr happen.
Well why don’t you just post the reasons in one post, that ways the discussion could be much more inclusive and concise.
There was a reason for the nuclear deal progressing through even with Pakistani objection, which is the same reason behind US offering near about all commercially available systems to India.
The relations between India and USA of which military equipment is a part do not represent a threat that Pakistan will oppose to a degree which actually cripples its own diplomatic agenda, when it can see that US/European policy in the region is moving towards a different path, and when India has gathered enough economic resources to outspend Pakistan in every aspect of conventional war ability. (During the current Five Year Plan 2007-12, India will spend $100 billion on weaponry, which will rise to $120 billion during the next Five Year Plan 2012-17) this is just on net weapon purchase, without factoring the budget to run the military.
insomnia.delhiBecause right now even C-130J planes to India are being delivered without advanced comms equipment. Will be a big jump to F-35
Host of other reasons, but do not want to derail thread…
If India signs CISMOA the plane will be offered with the com euip, without it the planes will fit the regular available InAF equip (which is better), and the plane C-130J is still being offered with the same aircraft performance and countermeasure suite which was its selling point. From the looks of it the government has no reason to sign the deal without a technological benefit(quite a hot topic in the Indian Parliament).
That is not a reason for F-35 not being offered, Pakistani pressure to stop any future sale through the senators and lobbyists it funds might be a more reasonable reason, which has not succeed in stooping the last 5-10 years of defence and economic relations (Nuclear deal being a example).
Actually talking about InAF plane and policies will be very much on the thread, so please go ahead with the reason/reasons.
It will simply not happen.
Almost every major US ally who is buying new US jets and who can afford it is buying F-35. This is not even in the competition for India.
Now you can bark on all you want about timelines, the simple truth is IAF would happily wait a few more years to get the F-35 instead of getting the F-16/F-18.
It has not been offered, and to refuse publicly would be embaressing for both countries….
woof woof X 5, actually what you have written is all about timeline.
Now when you say the F-35 has not been cleared for India, you forget that the RFI stage has already been cleared by the US Gov. for India and the requested information has been provided, the Request for proposal/FMS stage is still left (i.e obviously not cleared yet).
What precisely do you mean when you say ‘It will simply not happen’?
Do you mean that you know this for a fact that Indian Navy simply will not buy the plane, and the RFI was just for fun? in which case please say hello the next time you talk to the admiral.
The defence secretary has been quoted in some news sources with the statement along the lines of InAF wont buy the 35.
Or perhaps you mean that it might not happen due to some reasons like the plane just not being available in the 2017-2020 time frame, in which case could you please provide a link towards the exact time frame when the plane will be available?
As i see it the STOVL 35 just lost a customers and many nations dont seem that enthusiastic about purchasing the numbers they originally estimated.
insomnia.delhithe IN is the only serious contender for the F-35 and it seems like they have their fighters (MiG-29K and N-LCA possibly) decided for the first 2 carriers. The IAC-2, if it goes with catapults will be likely to see F-35Cs and if not it may look at F-35Bs.
IN has some 45 MiG-29Ks on order, along with the complete training set-up.
IAC, might have another 30-40 fixed wing planes (a larger ship).
This would give the IN some 80 planes of two types with completely different training and maintenance set-up. However the jump in capability will be immense, US naval planes come with a history of intense naval operations behind them (and all the lessons learned with time), as compared to the limited Soviet/Russian naval fighter experience.
Locally produced as part of the ToT, of course!:)
Locally produced is sadly not equal to cheaper, these high technology equipments are not like the good old ordinance factories, they require quite an educated crew and the same set-up to manufacture, test and operationalise.
In case of such weapons (cruise missiles) a local production run of say 500 missiles would be much cheaper ordered from the original manufacturer as that cuts down on setting up complete tooling required for another manufacturing line.
The MMRCA has the added cost of parting with technology, setting up the complete tooling for the manufacturing lines in India, along with training for HAL people manufacturing and consulting to operationalise the lines.
However in case of ToT, the technology transfered with advanced cruise missiles (esp. the european ones) would be a jump in capability itself.
That really does not mean much, it certainly does not mean the aircraft is cleared for India.
There is a habit of reading way too much into some news reports and then creating imaginary scenarios…..
Would you expand on that, do you have reason to believe that the aircraft wont be cleared for India?
insomnia.delhiSo you took several sentences to basically agree with me….
To share my logic, my opinions on the discussion, one liners can be confusing. Always scope for discussion even amongst similar opinons. That is all we can share- opinions, the way things will actually happen are near impossible to predict.
For all that matters, the leftists might win a majority in center due to some unforeseen event, cancel the western MMRCA, declare eternal peace with PRC and Pakistan, cut the military budget by 70%, declare USA a state enemy to show solidarity with the Palestinian cause, and i might win that elusive lottery to finally open up my own bar in Goa.
😀
But a good semi-stealth MMRCA with cruise missiles:rolleyes: would be nice.
Good post, insomnia.D.
Crippling PLA logistics through cruise missiles 😮
Might take a good chunk out of the bank account.
😀
For the crucial targets (a bridge/perilous mountain road bend/supply depo/command communication post) it will be cheaper to use ALCMs, a very evolved cruise missile can use the mountainous terrain to great advantage, and the plane stays safely out of any radars/SAMs coverage.
insomnia.delhiF-35 to India not gonna happen. Not for at least another 15 years.
There might be some slots available around 2017-2020, if they are able to get the F-35B’s abandoned by RN (will cost a lot of money to get into the program).
Far as InAF is concerned there is no scope for F-35, not even in the next 30 years, with the MMRCA, LCA Mk-II, Su-30MKI, FGFA, and AMCA, there will be no capacity to accept another type.
IN could take the next step and ask the MoD to inquire on a government to government level about the F-35Bs.
Moving away from Mig-29K for another type will cost a lot of problems, especially after setting up all the infra required for the couple of squadrons ordered, just imagine the two training facilities required for such a limited force (3-5 squadrons) would be criminal waste of money.
Meanwhile the two carriers that will be operational before 2017-2020 time frame will require planes, so the couple of Mig-29 squadrons can not be shelved.
If the IN does not go for the F-35 i doubt it will ever serve with the Indian military.
insomnia.delhiVery interesting
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/11/buy-fighter-for-war-not-air-shows.html
F-35 for MMRCA
They could do that, if setting up manufacturing in house for big deals was not a requirement, it will be very tough for US companies to get clearance to set up shops manufacturing the aircrafts fuselage, engine and most of the avionics in India, even tougher as the ministry of defence is after buying the tech to make the stuff from the ground up, instead of assembling kits from suppliers.
If they were to try and procure say 5 squadrons worth (10 billion $), i think they should place an order for some prototype F-35C version with all wet wing instead of folding ones (thus increasing the internal fuel even more i suppose), possibly with weight reduction from reducing the reinforcement required for CATOBAR operations (increasing the range even more).
From the Blog post:
A devastating ground strike capability is also primary for contingencies on the China border.
If we have to attack PRC, we need a miracle.
If they attack us we need soldiers, lots of them, supported by lots of artillery guns big and small, and a AF that ensures clear skies. 7-10 squadrons of F-35 with 4-5 posted along the Himalayan region will need a hell of a lot of sorties to bomb PRC logistics (to make an impact on any war effort), no answer for more troops more guns and clear skies.
The MMRCA procurement reflects this bias: the IAF’s tender emphasises air-to-air combat capabilities
The army has not forgotten the IAF’s irrelevance during the Kargil conflict. When IAF fighters should have been supporting assaulting infantry by hammering Pakistani positions with air strikes, fire support came almost exclusively from the army’s own guns. Meanwhile, the IAF was searching for a way to equip its Mirage-2000s (an MMRCA!)
F-18E/F a contestant in MMRCA was made as a strike plane before a fighter.
There was a sortie to sortie record of InAFs bombing back in Kargil, most of it was done to destroy supply lines and supply bases set up near Kargil.
I doubt the InAF had enough bombs to match the number of artillery shells available for fire support, and most of the bombs were plain old iron bombs, really strange to hear a military man saying that the nation should have wasted money on fighter plane sorties to do a job the artillery could do.
The F-35 does not sound like a plane which should be utilised for supporting ground troops the same way a attack plane is supposed to, thats just hundred million dollars waiting to be wasted by cheap anti air fire.
US Air Force combat simulations have found the F-35 the equal in air-to-air combat of four fighters of the 4th Generation, which the IAF is now procuring.
So if Air Force A gets 100 F-35s, the enemy Air Force B needs to buy 500 4th generation fighters and still have 100 fighters left for no F-35s left at the end of this 1:4 ratio war.
😀
insomnia.delhicost I presume?
Look at the Wedgetail, a modern AESA AWACS that copied a cost-effective idea that Erieye already implemented….
Yea billion up, 3 years late and till 2012 to final clearance, copied of a cost effective idea all right. 😀
Wedgetail gives a 360 degree view i think, has many more arrays than the erieye, and from the delays and cost over runs its clear that it is a truly original and unique defence program (that seems to be the primary property of every new defence project around the world, its cost and time over-runs).
insomnia.delhi2009 interview of one of the radar designers for the KJ-2000 system(in Chinese).
http://bbs.wforum.com/wmf/bbsviewer.php?trd_id=39850
Interesting that it appears the Y-8 ‘balance-beam’ AWACS was, at least in part, developed to mitigate the delays in getting IL-76 platforms for the KJ-2000.
Google translation is not that advanced, in the interview, is he talking about ToT on the t/r modules and integration from Israel (development and manufacturing) being done even though the project was canceled?
Wang: no. In cooperation with Israel, we learn
To a lot of useful experience, such as the respect of norms. Previously, we made a very simple electronic products, many traces of the workshop when you’re heavy. Israel Dangshi requirements of our strict, can be called “picky”. Through this cooperation with Israel, after we have experience, know how to engage in mass production, to make a into a later stable quality, and also saved a lot of maintenance problems. Composite radome to do when we can learn from this approach, control of quality.
Cooperation with Israel not only enhanced our level of technology, technically also help us. 90 Israel in the early twentieth century to use it network technology, fully networked. They were made of radar-based network and bus structure I think is very good.
Really does not make a lot of sense after translation.
Wang: In the past AWACS large, mainly because of detection of long distance, then the antenna must be large, so the plane must be large. At the same time, the aircraft big after which people can more and can do more things. Now technology, the antenna can be small, from far away. Meanwhile, more powerful equipment, a lot of people do the things needed can be handed over to the machine. Coupled with the communications and data link technology developed, so many people without God, even unmanned, the use of AWACS intelligence data link to the ground on the line, so the plane could become smaller.
After a small antenna, but also to ensure the radar is still very much see that there will be a lot of tricks. Such as the use of total linear array, to cancel the back of the large mushroom machine. We now estimates that the principle feasible, the next generation or the next to prepare the next generation of early warning aircraft to move in this direction. (According to “weapons knowledge,” Ho Yi / text)
Basically smaller early warning planes with robust networking and the command and control crew located at ground stations. (i hope that’s what he said).
insomnia.delhiAbout angled arrays: has anyone here looked at the published pictures of APG-77, APG-79, APG-80 & APG-81? IIRC they’re all angled upwards.
Everything except the AESA for F-15s, and the SABR for F-16s.
Would that not limit the area of scan (below the aircraft) for air and ground modes? (with the upward angle and electronic steering)
insomnia.delhiThis is different than a swashplate mounting, as is proposed for the Typhoon and Gripen:
It looks as if this choice of radar also increases the area available in the nose cone for the array, if compared to a radar fixed in a vertical position.
insomnia.delhiThere is also the Russian approach on the current PAK-FA program as shown in some news media, of having an X band radar on the nose and two side arrays providing greater coverage along with two L band arrays on the wing leading edges.
insomnia.delhiI think i remember reading here that the the firm involved in Gripen and Typhoon AESA radar development is the same (leading to similar moving swashplate design).
Meteor is said to have a >100 miles range with its engine powering it to that range i.e able to chase maneuvering targets like a fighter plane out to that range, this must put it in a completely different scale in terms of combat effectiveness/no escape zone, when compared to current missiles, and this is with its first production version.
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