dynamoI don’t think anyone in his right mind would claim that a banana republic with a dozen PAK FAs would stand a chance against the US.
Yet, I find this more interesting as a psychological first reaction from an American (no insult intended):
The first psychological reaction to a traumatic event is often denial.
And of course, as a general rule:
Never say never 😉But generally, we only need to go to F-16.net to get an estimate of the general reaction to the PAK FA of the US military aviation community. Those pages are a sad read and does not do America justice, what happened to that open minded America that could look at an opponent and see the good and the bad in them and analyze without painting everything black and white? Something that is most admirable about the British, even today and why this forum is perhaps so popular with such great analysis despite the trolls.
A better informed person would know that F16. net it’s not a US site. It’s a Belgian site! It’s true that most of the people posting there are F 16 fans, but most of them are not from US! So goood luck in finding people from the “US military aviation community” on F 16.net…:p
Now, why the “US military aviation community” reaction to T 50 was more moderate than Russian one? Why they didn’t start to tremble in panic when they find out about the terrible news of the first flight (or are there already 2?) of a prototype? Maybe because they know very well the pains of introducing in operational service a new (stealth) plane…
dynamoChina.
How many 4 gen (Su 30 , J10) has China right now? ~ 300 Su 27/Su 30/J11 and ~ 100 J10… How many 5 gen.? None… Hardly a huge threat for US.
Even without China in the game you are assuming that you know what threats will appear in the next 20 years, you don’t, nor does anybody for sure.
Thus it makes sense to ensure that the kit you are developing for future use is as useful as it can be…
There is very unlikely that a threat will appear out of nowhere. The capabilities of aerospace industry are largely known for each country. It’s hard to have surprises.
dynamoStruggling with the naivety of those who are happy to carry only a couple of aam’s on their fighters.
If the aircraft is tasked with an a2a role the more a2a weapons it can carry, with no or little performance degradation, the better.
You cannot dominate airspace if the opposition can fly more strikers at you than you have missiles….or are you planning to go wvr with the gun…;)
And how many fighters/strikers do you assume a potential US enemmies will be able to field thant will made inadequate 4 AMRRAM per F 35? Or Meteor if you consider future European F 35 users?
dynamoThat’s odd. I went through the last pages of this thread and I did not find a single poster making that claim, or even suggesting these reasons.
And did I mention that it has anything to do with this thread?
Bottom line is, besides your sources (AAS-42 of 150 km range, 5,500 F-4s with IRST etc),
Coud you quote something else? I’ll be glad to correct if you provide some credible data.
observation (confusing gun pods for IRSTs, Jesus!)
?
and history knowledge (refering to iraqis as representative example or both soviet equipment and usage
Where did I say this?
P.S.
No $h*t. So, it’s not an IRST. What a surprise.
I never said it is.
dynamoSmart-**** one-liners are another substitute for reasoned argument. They’re an attempt to deflect attention from an inability to think of a more appropriate reply.
I was not playing smart. I just find hard to believe the 22,000 figure, even with the Swedish record in offsets.
dynamoErrr… And where exactly does it say the TISEO is an IR tracker????
TISEO isn’t a IR sensor, it’s a TV camera with a powerfull (for its day) zoom. It’s better during daytime.
dynamoI think that comparing that to a modern IRST is like comparing an infrared bearing pointer (costs $120.00 in your hunting store) to a thermal weapon sight ($8000.00 upwards for uncooled silicon microbolometer arrays, low-res 160×120 FPA, $20,000.00+ for 320×240/640×480 FPA)
Agreed, we can’t compare a modern FPA-based IRST with what US fielded in the 60′.
However, the idea was that some posters think that the IRST is a Russian invention. Or, that the Russiasns are more advanced then the west in this field. And the reason for those was because most of the Su 27/MiG 29 had IRST while F15/F16/F 22 do not :p
dynamoConsider the cost of building & operating fighter aircraft. What’s the average productivity of a worker? Divide USDd.5 billion by the value added per worker, & get a rough idea of how many worker years it is. Then multiply up for 120 fighters, & again for ongoing support needs.
You haven’t thought it through.
BTW, the use of ‘Whatever’ as a substitute for reasoned debate usually indicates an inability to reply with anything more meaningful.
You are right, I can’t find anything meaningfull in SAAB promise of 22,000 of jobs…
dynamoDon’t forget Japan. It has had an AESA fighter radar in service for years.
The ‘Selex thing’ in Gripen NG is currently in the nose of the aircraft, & flying.
It is a development of the Vixen range of AESA radars, the basic model of which (the Vixen 500E) is fully developed & in production, having been bought by the US customs & border protection to replace old F-16 radars on patrol aircraft.
And still the rafale AESA in already done, while the Selex is inmuch earlier stage.
It’s just the first stage. The FAB wants up to 120 fighters eventually, to replace its entire jet fighter fleet, including F-5BR & AMX.
Whatever. It’s more a marketing stunt IMHO. I mean 22,000 ???
dynamoAnd how do guys like you know that the F-22 is better here or there while everything is classified? :-p
Well, what we know about F 22 (VLO, supercruise, sensor fusion) could be enough to rate as # 1 as a fighter; Cola was specific about sustain turn rate.
PIRATE is actually a dual-band imaging IR sensor working with medium and long wavelength. I mean to remember that the sensor features 1024 elements and offers a 24 Mpixel resolution.
That’s the point: Pirate has both LW and MW sensors. The MW sensors have way more elements. ATFLIR: 640×480, Sniper: XR 640×512, Litening AT: 640×512. If the 1000 elements are only for LWE it’s great.
dynamoAnything beyond 4 AMRAAMs or similar missiles belonmgs to a fantasy land. If I were in charge for the F-35 project, I would be more than satisfied with its present internal loading capability.
+1
OTOH,you had to agree that many F 35 detractors mentioned the “small” AAM load as one of the plane weakness…
dynamoF22’s sustained turn isn’t anything special, considering its wing and thrust loading and extra trim may be contributing to it.
How do you know? From the airshow maneuvers it’s hard to guess, and the offcial data are probably classifed
In the aspect that gets forgotten most of the time, but is the determining factor in fighting the war…cost/effectiveness performance.
So, if Sukhoi manages to make a plane doing M1.5 SC with comparable range and similar weapon load, but at a 2.5 times less price that’s more than enough to offset any advantages F22 might have in terms of pure performance.
The flyaway price of the lasts F 22 delivered was around 140 mil $. I doubt that the PAK FA could cost ~ 60 mil. Today advanced version of Su 30/35 cost more.
It does, but AAS42 and PIRATE both work in the same band (with PIRTATE working in dual band, in fact).
And are you sure that Pirate LW sensor segment houses 1000 elements?
Now, this is hard to believe…
I red this claim in AvLeak, FlightGlobal, Air& Cosmas among other. Not on LM site.
dynamoPerhaps NG’s AESA will be more awesome that Rafale’s…
Except that the rafale AESA is almost ready, making France the second country after US that did this, while Selex thing is not even a prototype.
Perhaps the Saab/Selex IRST will also be more awesome than Rafale’s.
Perhaps. Or perhaps not…
You cannot compare Gripen C/D avionics and say “Rafale is better” because the NG will have Ng avionics not C/D avionics.
And NG avionics comprises…
NG will be able to carry both IRIS-T and Meteor (but Brazil may want to integrate something else…)
On a more serious note, that’s one single advantage of Gripen: the ability to incorporate many weapons (not only IrisT, but also Sidewinder, Phyton, Derby, JDAM) while the Rafales are somehow limmited to French weapons, or weapons with Frech participation (Meteor)
Perhaps the NG also will have a lower RCS and IR signature…?
Highly unlikely.
And what about towed decoys and HMD?
Spectra could do the jo without towed decoys and french industry can do them, if necessary. As for HMD none of the two fighters has a functional one in this moment.
So what is left? Rafale wins in TWR, and have a slight edge in maneouvribility. But those factors seems to be consider less important these days — it’s all about avionics, sensor fusion, SA, EWS, RCS and IR signature..
Fields in which Rafale best Geipen
The other thing is of course payload — but as said before if FAB does not see the need for such huge payloads, it does not help the Rafale…
Did you read the RFP? I doubt that any buyer wouldn’t insist in a larger payload. Not only for weapons, but for range. Except for a few fighters (Su family and in future F 35) the rest need EFTs. Rafale can carry 4 big ones.
dynamoWinner was placed the last (google translation).
Please, note that the original is for subscribers only, but you can find it on this site (http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/nacional/selecao_detalhe3.asp?ID_RESENHA=667366), which is a press summary. The journalist is the same one that published, yesterday, the news that Rafale was the chosen one.Best!
Eliane Cantanhêde columnist for Folha
In addition to having been in last place in the technical evaluation of the Brazilian Air Force, which will operate the new fighters at least the next 30 years, the French Rafale from Dassault, was not considered the best in any of the seven final criteria.
The French jet was appointed as the worst option in these five criteria: technical, logistical, technological compensation / commercial, employment generation and price.
The winner, the Gripen NG was considered better in four requirements: technical, technology transfer, employment generation and price.
His biggest weakness is being exploited by political report prepared by Minister Nelson Jobim, was the factor “risk”, since it is an evolution of the original Gripen, still in testing.In the matter of provision of employment, the commission heard FAB Brazilian companies and defense estimates that the proposal from Saab could generate 22 thousand jobs, the Boeing 5000, and Dassault, 2500. Embraer, responsible for one of the external evaluations at the request of the FAB, the Company appointed the Swedish proposal to more stimulating to the domestic industry.
How on earth a deal of 36 highters could end up in creating 22,000 jobs? Even considering offsets in both aerospcae and other fields than aerospace?
dynamoBut has a matrix of 256 elements. Modern IRSTs feature 1024.
Range is partially dependent on number of elements as well, so I don’t know how did you figure >150 km range when PIRATE works up to ~50nm with possible detection at 80nm, in exceptional conditions (still less than 150km)??.
I think that it depends of the frequency. LW sensors, as the AAS 42 could have fewer elements than a MW ones (Sniper, ATFLIR)
Well every manufacturer claims for its product to be the best.
Except that LM (the manufacturer) never claimed this.
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