I think that brochures need to be read with certain ‘filter’. “Multispectral countermeasures” sound great until you realize it is just chaff and flares. Electronic attack capabilities undoubtely mean it is integrated to radar.
With only 2 equipment racks, I am certain those are hi-band and low-band receivers. There doesn’t seem to be transmitter units.
It said “offensive and defensive digital electronic warfare capability”. No one consider chaffs and flares as offensive digital electronic warfare. Then there is little fact that ASQ-239 is made by BAE while APG-81 is made by Northrop Grumman,if that isn’t enough, it also states “simultaneous jamming without interfering with radar and RWR”. Literally no reason to think the system can’t perform jamming. Look at BAE brochure for EPAWSS, very similar wording is used.
Towed decoys yes, ASQ-239 active jamming no. It has its own antennas, sure, but those are not for active ECM. The link says “providing the aircraft with radio-frequency and infrared countermeasures”, i.e. chaff and flares. There are provisions to upgrade the system to a full ECM suite afaik.
The brochure say “offensive and defensive digital electronic warfare capability” and “simultaneous jamming without interfering with radar and RWR” so iam pretty sure ASQ-239 aperture can be used to perform jamming.
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BAE video also shows the aircraft perform jamming from wing aperture. In short, i don’t see any reason to believe ASQ-239 is a passive rwr only
. Again, you better hope the modern day ASQ-239 beats the Eagles ancient ALQ-135. Unless active jamming outside the frontal area is required, ALQ-135 still has the edge there
ASQ-239 can perform jamming independent of APG-81, it has its own antenna for that task (they came from 2 different manufacturer, APG-81 came from Northrop while ASQ-239 is made by BAE)
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/an-asq-239-f-35-ew-countermeasure-system
F-35 can also carry fiber optic towed decoy. In short, it should be more than capable of jamming outside frontal area.
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Given that a f-15C could surpass mach 2,5 while F-35 just get mach 1,6 in an interception run I would claim a No contest there.
F-15 with 4 missiles is limited to Mach 2.1 at max thrust and Mach 2.2 with V-max.
15 Extended Range – AARGM rounds to be procured in FY19 for EMD, Dev. and Operational Test and Evaluation. OE to begin in Q4 2020, while IOT&E in 2022. Low Rate Production set to begin in 2022. JSM, Meteor, Spear3, SOM-J, SDBII, AARGM-ER and SiAW all new weapons waiting in line for F-35 integration in the early-mid 2020s. Majority of these would be developed to be compatible with UAI.
I think SiAW likely for later, we haven’t seen the mock up of it yet
ATLC in DSI:
Saying Spectra is better than F-16CJ without HTS is kinda an empty victory, that like claiming you can shot further than an airplane without missiles.
another one from captain Romain who wrote a book on rafale in Afganistan:
Can you post the links or screenshot of this? Because it doesn’t look like an official interview on magazine to me.
However performance was deemed similar by this Thales project manager. I
But honestly who would say their product is inferior.
Because there are many exchange pilots on FA18 C/D. APG79 is the best known US AESA radar.
F-18C/D isn’t equipped with APG-79.
Another physical count on an internet photo?
No need for that derogatory tone toward photos elements counts, it is at the very least still the count of the physical devices that seen fitted into aircraft nose. I can bet if photos elements count of Rafale shown 1100 or 1200 T/R modules instead then you would be the first to say that it is more accurate than generic value.
That was a shot in rafale six, but in the frontal emisphere, range is much more important. It is routinely used in exercises with confirmed kills and first report dates from ATLC 2009 in the UAE
Can you post these reports? Iam interested
With the newer version of SPECTRA coming this year, it will be even more accurate and deadly.
From AFM Also GaN technology and additional emitting panels should sound appealing, not to mention integrated offensive jamming in the radar & emitting panels
Those are for F4 standard still in development and introducing in 2023-2025 time frame from what i can remember.
SH radar is not that big, you have to fit the gun in SH nose.
The cannon and bell feed are behind the radar, there is a hole leading to front but it has very small diameter because M61 is a 20 mm cannon. Anyway, APG-79 is big because it is canted at around 60°, physical T/R modules count give around 1363 modules.
I was just referring to an interview in the weekly A&C where a Thales project manager told current RBE2 AESA was similar in performance to the APG-79.
I haven’t seen the interview but how can he know how well APG-79 performed? If 2 radar made by the same company then i get his point but APG-79 is made by Raytheon rather than Thales
That’s true for NATO forces, less sure for the rest. Anyway, you would have AWACS support in your scenario so what the point. You would get the global picture from a third party.
Soviet has datalink since the 80s with Mig-31, iam sure most near peers airforce has datalink by now, and with advanced long range missiles like R-33, R-37, K-100, PL-15, Meteor, AIM-120D then AWACs are very vulnerable.
Often but not always the case. Let’s take Dassault Aviation official words on page 14 of Fox Three n°9
Still generic statement versus actual photos. Point is, if the number of T/R modules is not classified and they can publish how many T/R modules the radar has, then there is no point for them to go out of their way to make all mock up with the same 838 modules while still fit Rafale nose. By contrast, if they intended to hide the real number of T/R modules then the number on the mock up still more likely to be real than the one they claimed, since it is it more likely they did not expect people to actually count it. Furthermore, Rafale nose is pretty small and the radar is vertical, it is quite unreasonable to assume RBE2 has the same aperture area as APG-79 as superbug nose is bigger and its radar is canted.
Or their massive RCS. The more you radiate the more you become visible also, it can play against you. At that game modern RWR with 3D geo-location must be part of the consideration.
In modern battlefield, data share is a given, a squadron of 20-25 aircraft may have 1-2 transmitting while the rest can remain silent and get information through data link, and geolocate by radar still much faster and more accurate, so RWR alone can’t cut it.
It has been almost ten years that rafales display long range BVR passive shots with EW only.
It was something like 7.8 nm against a Mirage if i recall correctly.
And Thales specified several times they were dummies… AND that the number of moules was more or less 1000. But of course counting dots on internet photographies is more credible than Manufacturer’s specifications
Mock up dummy are often the model of the real thing without the internal parts. The dummy fit inside a real Rafale too. Several mock up of the RBE2 all have the same exact modules count down to rivets position. So hard to blame people trusting that than generic statements.
What’s the diameter of RBE-2 ?
Several RBE2 mock up including the one in Thales product card have 838 T/R modules
RBE2 product card
And Rafale nose cone is similar to F-16 in size. Slightly narrower but it is a round shape while F-16 nose is more oval. Don’t forget that the cone is in front of the IRST.
probably that the 40km range is what you should look for: it might describe the maximum theoretical range at max theoretical alt, hence the one where the booster is fully expended to gain some altitude before the internal engine of the missile take-over
Comparing their relative length with the AIM-120, the air launched version of stunner seem to be 20% longer than the second stage of ground launched version. As it doesn’t have a warhead i think it could approach the range of AIM-120, may be equal to MICA ?

Obviously, we are designing a fighter not a passenger plane. If we are to replicate supercruise at altitude, the point Sprey is making is a Turbojet can do it (just like the engines of the F-22 which are very low bypass engines).
Low bypass turbofan is not the same as turbo jet engine.
Turbo jet are generally better optimized for high Mach speed, however, at low/medium altitude, subsonic they often have much lower thrust than turbofan engine. Which means the acceleration in dogfight regime isn’t as good. Moreover, because turbo jet is less fuel efficient, to reach the same combat radius requirements, you need more fuel and therfore a bigger, less agile aircraft. Experience have shown that aircraft spend very little time at supersonic so turbofan engine becomes the first choice for modern fighters with these following advantages: heavier weapons load, better subsonic acceleration, better take off characteristics, better fuel consumption, lower IR signature, longer flight hours. In short, Sprey is dead wrong.
The point being made is that your eyes don’t have to be attached to your fists.
No they don’t, distributed aperture is good. Not the whole squadron have to transmit all the time. However, if you designed your modern fighter so that they have to totally rely on AWACs and CGI like 1950s Mig-17 then you gonna have a bad time. Which is why design a fighter without a radar is dumb. Imagine playing soccer with 10/11 players in your team blind.
Agreed. However, you will always find that going slow and going low helps in CAS and in tactical bombing. This is a well established principle. No CAS platform is designed as a supersonic aircraft, if it is designed for that particular purpose.
Unfortunately, CAS and tactical bombing doesn’t happen in vaccum, your enemies won’t be so kind to wait until you finished CAS before dispatching their own fighters. SAM won’t to so kind to ignore pure fighters.
Yes, but the NEZ (No escape zone) shrinks depending on the speed and altitude of the incoming aircraft. Which was the point being made. This is why the PAKFA is fundamentally a superior platform for taking out SAM sites than the F-35 can be
You are missing various important details:
_ Most threats are pop up threats, in other words, you don’t know their position before hand.
_ The faster you go the bigger your turn radius will be which means even if you detect threat at the same time you will go much closer to threats area before you can turn back if you fly fast (Mig-31, F-14 turn radius at Mach 2.2 is about 34 km and 54 km respectively )
_ The faster you go, the higher the closure rate therefore the smaller reaction time if something being launched toward your direction.
_The higher you fly, the more missiles will have to climb to reach you, however the air is also much thinner, which reduces your STR and ITR significantly.
_ The faster you go the higher IR signature you will generate, and therefore the easier it would be to detect you, and you will be attacked earlier.
_ Every design has trade offs, features that better for high speed such as variable intake is not as good for VLO characteristics.
_ Modern air to ground missiles like JSM, JSOW-ER and what ever the Russian equivalent is, can be launched from outside the engagement range of all SAM, the hard job is actually to locate these SAM.
So no, faster is not away better, just think about why the B-52 still here but XB-70 didn’t go into production.
The rest of your post destroyed my argument so i will leave a short remark pretend like it doesn’t bother me
FTFY
Turbo jets are actually quite efficient in a hi-hi profile. That is why f22 engines are nearly turbojets with a very low bypass ratio.
In the paper, Sprey calls for a radar that has, what we would describe as an LPI capability. But he wanted that radar to be cheap and light. Such a radar type seems possible although not developed.
Turbo jet less fuel efficient compared to turbofan, F-22 used a low bypass ratio engine for better speed rather than fuel efficiency.
All 4.5 and 5 generation fighters have pretty expensive radar and EW systems.
Every fighter does not need to have a heavyweight radar, or giant EW units.These can be designated to AWACS and EW aircraft.
and what happen when these high value asset get destroyed ?
To do proper CAS you need to be down there with your MK1 eyeball to spot hidden tanks, artillery, etc. A UAV is never a substitute. If you want UAVs to do the spotting then they can do the firing too. But guess what? No grunt on the ground has ever wanted that over an A-10 above their heads with giant loiter and firepower.
MK-1 eye ball won’t beat IIR system and SAR in detection range, especially in clutter environment, not even remotely close.
A-10 won’t loiter longer than an UAV, a small UAV like MQ-1 can last for 24 hours. In term of fire power, A-10 can carry the GAU-8 which is nice, but if we talking about destruction and range, it won’t beat SDB or JDAM. The only real advantage of GAU-8 is lesser collateral damage but with new weapons like APKWS, LOGIR, it isn’t that special anymore.
Or something with superior kinematic performance to reduce the NEZs.
Slow SAM can fly at Mach 3-4, fast SAM can fly at Mach 6-10, you won’t be able to out accelerate or out run modern long range SAM
Soviets? They don’t know a thing. Swedes? Meh… Israeli and Pakistani air forces that think BVR can be negated? They don’t even count
Soviet? they are the one who made Flanker series, massive aircraft with big radar, big missiles. Mig-31 is also big aircraft with massive radar and very long range missiles. Modern Russia made Su-57, also big expensive aircraft with big radar.
Swedes? they made the Gripen C, a very small , cheap aircraft, but guess what, the improved Gripen E version is much heavier with bigger radar, more fuel and better EW systems
Israeli? their F-16 is among the heaviest F-16 version and they are also in line to buy the F-35.
^ PLA’s reply will likely be one of the following:
– you have biased western thinking thats why you cant understand
– China is developing something that all the other countries couldn’t figure out
J-20 is a heavy and complex aircraft so it pretty much go against all of his points haha
He mentions a host of things that make sense and is relevant today, or so I would argue.
1. A single turbo jet engine, optimized for supercruise.
2. Stealth with minimal internal or semi-recessed anti-aircraft missiles
3. Passive sensors (no active radar on the aircraft is needed). RWR, MAWS, IRST, etc). Data-linked to off-board sensor platforms.
4. A simple, no frills design, possibly even a simple delta.
5. Production in numbers.
He is incredibly visionary, talking back then about LPI, distributed aperture, netcentric warfare, LO, and so much more.
1. There isn’t any recent modern fighter that use turbojet engine, they are too hot and very fuel inefficient
2. Stealth is hardly Sprey’s idea, it was deemed importent ever since human know about war with camouflage and what not
3. Sprey want aircraft without radar and jammer and all that complex electric equipment, needless to say no one does that.
4. When making any weapons system, you would want simple enough to reduce cost, but not too simple to the point of endanger your soldiers, unfortunately, if you design an aircraft according to Sprey guidance, you will trade money with your men life
Sprey idea about fighter is as ridiculous as his idea about effective tank http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/09/07.pdf
If the Fighter Mafia represented one end of the spectrum, the JSF crowd represented the opposite end – everything can be built into a pissy fat gold-plated swiss army knife that costs $1 trillion. And… errr… no fighter can challenge this plane or…. errr… we will call you names.
But if we didn’t think him mad, the JSF crowd would never have been able to get away with what they did. Think about that..
1 trillions is the life cycle cost of ~3000 F-35 over the course of 53 years. Buy any modern aircraft be it C-5, F-15K, Typhoon, CH-53K for that same number, calculate their life cycle cost for 50 years and you will get a huge number
er, “the same”… besides being both “reconnaissance pods”, I doubt they have a single screw in common
The same as in they will have similar level of capability