The CUDA is a “looooook, i am still here” design by LM, nothing more, nothing less, its a CAD exercise, no Pentagon program, no Pentagon money, its a nice “what if”.

Cheers

it may not be in short future but likely in far future it will , or be inovation for country that using f-35 , just like sdb is innovation to develop SPEAR , or spice 250

True and false. Missiles were designed to attack the bombers, but they were later modified with anti-fighter capability. As for IFF, again true, but even from well within visual range, radar-guided missile Pk was 8%, compared to IR missile Pk of 15%.

Actually in vietnam war the aim-7 have better kill ratio tham aim-9b and the russian ir missile
because of iff problem that allow vietnam fighter to get well within f-4 minimum engage range = eliminate any F-4 advantage

WHich leaves them in an even worse position since a fighter that is trying to evade a missile will NOT follow a steady-state turn but will rather try to be as unpredictable as possible, or simply do a straight acceleration with missile at 3/9 o’clock followed by a hard turn into the missile, which missile will be unable to adapt to in time.

Actually it opposite
you have to turn at the right moment
turn too early = missile only have to adjust alittle , turn too late = kaboom , and with > 1 enemy missiles that not gonna be easy

Missiles have other problems, such as lack of lift as they are less efficient in that area than fighter aircraft

TRUE BUT SINCE THEY travel much faster lift is less of a problem

Correct, but you have to take into account that cca 50% of missiles will malfunction either before or after being launched, and that missiles will be vulnerable to countermeasures, so if one missile in a salvo is spoofed, other(s) are likely to be too (unless they are of different types – say, radar-guided, infrared, visual and anti-radiation in a single salvo).

50% ??? Really , are these missiles from china ?

Vostok-E can deploy in 8 minutes.
http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Rus-VHF-Radar-2008.pdf

AUSAIRPOWER =.= come on , seriously it even worst than wiki any other link suggest the same number ?

For that, pilot needs to know that a missile is inbound, and there is nothing preventing a missile from having a secondary active radar function.

Pilot will know by maws or irst and Anti radar homing will be,quite useless again fighter ( that why no missiles producer do that retarded thing )

F-35’s service ceilling is 50.000 ft, while Typhoon’s is between 60.000 and 65.000 ft, and Rafale’s is 59.000 feet.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/f35_article.html?item_id=116

There many link on internet state otherwise saying f-35 ceiling from 57k ft to 60k ft , and where exactly you find these number for typhoon , rafale ?

F-35s huge IR signature and lack of supercruise capability will put it at even higher disadvantage…

Typhoon fly faster , have 2 engine but f-35 have higher IR SIGNATURE , yeah sure LOL , also f-35 have reduced IR COATING ( topcoat )
i have already provide alink in last page say that f-35 can fly at mach 1.3 without after burner ( not supercruise caused LM DEFINE IT as the ability to fly at mach 1.7 without reheat )

if it turns on the radar it will be detected by Typhoon’s RWRs before it detects the Typhoon

Doubt that
1- AESA Radar
2- know that f-35 is out there without know it́s velocity , altitude , range willnot be very useful
3- there may be >1 f-35 out there but only one of them turn on radar

, if it stays passive it will get detected first due to inferior IRST that is optimized for ground attack and huge IR signature,

No valid reason to believe this
unless you can provide exact technical spec
eots and Das is as good , or even better than private ( because it least they have laser for targeting )

and in either case Typhoon will dictate terms of the engagement due to its higher cruise speed and better maneuverability. Against Rafale, situation is even worse – Rafale is a bit slower, but it has better sensors and EW suite than Typhoon, and it has IR BVR missiles.

NO it wont
no reason to believe typhoon or rafale have better ew suite or RWR than f-35 , it more likely to be opposite since f-35 have alot more funding and it́s main target is focus on electronic
and alittle bit different in agility and speed not going to help you dictate anything if your situational awareness is horrible compared to enemy
and as as explained before since typhoon , rafale use EFTs when they drop it to enter fight they will be at 100 % internal fuel , thus very unlikely to be more agile than and f-35 with 30-25% internal fuel
and btw f-35 have DIRCM So good luck with your ir bvr missiles

That is at page 37:
http://www.mossekongen.no/downloads/2008_RAND_Pacific_View_Air_Combat_Briefing.pdf

1- OLS-35 can detect a fighter from 50 km head-on and 90 km tail-on, missile from 81 km and missile launch from 90 km
2- PIRATE can detect a fighter from 90 km head on; in other place I’ve found PIRATE’s tail-on detection range to be 150 km
3- from that it follows that PIRATE can detect a missile from 135 km and missile launch from 150 km

Sorry point 1 and 2 doesnot lead to point 3 , you just make it up , and as i explained before you may be able to detect the missile from really far when it is launched but when it́s motor burn out then that a different story detect enemy missiles only for 2-3 sec after launch but then lose track is not very useful

It is actually easier to detect missiles at high altitude, as there is still a lot of friction when missile is flying at Mach 2-4, and there is less air, water and aerosoil to attenuate the IR radiation.

NO
The air density is alot less at 60-50kft compared to sea level , and since air caused friction you will have alot less ir signature

Outturn it. Not a very hard thing to do.

The uber super mega agile typhoon will likely only able to turn 1-0.5 G at mach 1.5 and 60K FT and the turn radius will be sth like 30-40 km

No, it will use its superior missiles and kinematics to stay out of F-35s engagement envelope.

And according to the fomular several page ago an aim-120 and still remain mach 3-4 out to 100 km at 60k ft , unlikely to be alot different 50kft , good luck stay out of that , and since f-35 is stealth it will enjoy first lock , first shot

Assuming CUDA ever enters the service, that is.

Likely it will , or sth similar caused it solve f-35 biggest problem : limited load out

So you are saying that 1m/s is actually a far higher velocity than 375 m/s?

Iam saying you make these number up, red shift only happened at very very high velocity and it also very inaccurate probably to hundred thounsand km/h

High *cruise* speed enables a fighter to dictate when and how to fight, as well as increasing one’s own and decreasing opponent’s missile range when engagement actually happens.

Stealth allow fighter to attack enemy first and not be attached back

In dogfight, half-a-second can easily mean a missed kill opportunity.

only at very short range and pilot nit gonna do that when they still have missiles to throw around

And what about the fact that North Vietnamese used aircraft that were decades behind US fighters in design, had no ECM and in some cases radar warner? What about the fact that BVR missiles never had a Pk of more than 10% in Vietnam

Vietnamese fighter was guided by cgi in to perfect position before attack = superior situational awareness

Pilots are most important factor in winning air wars, followed by numbers and only then aircraft quality.

50 F-22 Pilot by average pilot vs 200 mig-19 drive by good pilot which side will win

You can’t be knowledgeable without being sceptical.

But you and many other critic of f-35 simply being biased and dismiss any good point it have

.

He’s not smoking anything, F-35s level cruise speed is Mach 0,95.

last page there was a link show that it can cruise at mach 1.3 without reheati

According to Selex (and Bill Sweetman), the “other” twin Euro canard is suposedly doing that now, there are a pair of articles on the last two/three years describing the basic technique (IR triangulation by severall aircrafts, data being shared by Link 16, or zig zag ranging) ; AFAIK there´s not much more data on the public domain right now, but that the Pirate IRST has tracking modes, well, thats pretty official. How effective? God, Selex and the chaps who use the aircraft have a decent idea, Sintra here dont have a clue.

Cheers

While i can image triangulation by irst may be possible in future , what the heck is zig zag ranging ?? And how any of that give info about enemy aircraft velocity ??

Can almost supercruise

The F-35 can’t supercruise (…), but the test pilots have found that once they break the sound barrier,
supersonic speeds are easy to sustain.
“What we can do in our airplane is get above the Mach with afterburner,
and once you get it going … you can definitely pull the throttle back quite a bit and still maintain supersonic,
so technically you’re pretty much at very, very min[imum] afterburner while you’re cruising,”
Griffiths said.

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.com/2012/11/f-35-yeah-baby-it-super-cruises.html?m=1

There was no very agile a/c at the time, and none of the hit had MAWS/MLD

Mig-15/17/19 all have very good turn rate and turn radius

additionally, every missile becomes useless if it is detected & countered well in advance,
supercruise goes a long way to achieve reduced response time

no missiles dont become useless even if you see them comming , try fly again an aegis cruise , even if your fighter have best agility , best IRST sensor you still be in big trouble
Supercruise can actually cause trouble in some situation ( the faster you fly toward enemy missiles the faster you die )

In the real world, F-35 has to activate afterburner to run at mach 1 and its max ceiling of less than 50k ft,
those amraam it launches with the intent of plinking fighters will stall right at launch,
and will have to spend their energy getting speed up before they can turn left and right…
….its a non-starter

WW II Piston fighter like ta-152 , p-47 or p-51h have max ceiling from 40-50k ft , to say that the f-35 with jet engine , much better speed can only do the same is ridiculous , also offical source say f-35 service ceiling is 60k ft
also where.did you get the idea that f-35 need after burner to achieve mach 1 ??

2-3 sec is plenty for any IR MAWS detection
2-3 sec is plenty for any IR MAWS detection
suitable for high alt maneuver the first 2-3 sec of its flight you mean,
does that sound like a hypothetical BVR missile to You ?

detect missiles 2-3 s after launch but then lost track will not help you evade them
missle like aim-120 can still maneuver using fin , CUDA maneuver way is quite the same as PAC-3 , using small tiny ring of many small rocket booster ( it not the same as the main engine used to push the missile thus it till have maneuver ability even when the main booster stoped

I believe most were fired at WVR for ID purposes, still mostly missed in spite of being at their max g limit.

they still shot down quite a few aircraft despite used again very agile target , the problem wasnot really that the missiles missed but the mig come inside minimum range

yes, because the only reliable way of ID BVR was through emissions,
today he would chose a different seeker, or more likely, a dual seeker

still a big flaw in his logic , basiclly even at his time the missile will be useless if enemy turn off their radar at last moment

I donno what you are on to here, was that a reply to his statement that EF is faster ?
anyway EF service ceiling is higher

He say EF too fast for f-35 to get in position , i say F-35 doeanot even need to get in position ( ie : accelerate to mach 1.6 and zoom to much higher altitude ) , it only need to fly at it service ceiling and at mach 1 . EF huge rcs also give f-35 pilot alot more time to make decision
I really doubt that EF and f-35 have significant different in max ceiling

1] There is nothing hotter than a rocket engine
2] The higher up the better IR works, due less moisture and air density,
US SBIRS can detect a fighter taking off on afterburner, and was built as an early warning against B Missiles.
Mind you F-35 IR sensors detected a missile launch 800 km or whatever it was away, are F-35 sensors ‘special’ ?
3] CUDA, :rolleyes: does it come with pixie dust ?

1) except meteor , most other AAM missile run out of fuel 3-5 sec after launch
2) not neccessary , only true if enemy engine is running , if the engine is off , it actually harder because at high altitude air is thin = less skin friction = less infrared = very hard to detect missile out of fuel
3 ) CUDA pitch not controlled by fin but rather mini tiny rocket engine thus make it very suitable for high altitude maneuver

Operational tests before Vietnam achieved 60% Pk for radar-guided missiles, which turned out to be 6-10% in the actual war. So allow me to be sceptical.

missile in vietnam was actually designed to attack bomber , not fighter , also most problem was caused by IFF , thus f-4 unable to use it́s missile BVR

Number of Gs by itself says nothing. Missiles cannot achieve maximum number of Gs most of the time, and even when they can, radius of turn is greater than that for aircraft:

Mach 1 at 30.000 feet = 303,1 m/s

IRIS-T: 60 g, Mach 3 (909,3 m/s)
AIM-120D: 40 g, Mach 4 (1212,4 m/s)
Dassault Rafale: 9 g, 360 kts (185,2 m/s) sustained

a = acceleration due to gravity
g = g force
v = speed
r = radius of turn

a = v2 / r
g = 9,82 m/s2

So, radius of turn goes like this:

IRIS-T: 60 g = (909,3 m/s)^2 / r; 589,2 m/s2 = 826.826,49 m2/s2 / r; r = 826.826,49 m2/s2 / 589 m/s2; r = 1.403,78 m
AIM-120D: 40 g = (1212,4 m/s)^2 / r; 392,8 m/s2 = 1.469.913,76 m2/s2 / r; r = 1.469.913,76 m2/s2 / 392,8 m/s2 = 3.742,14 m
Rafale: 9 g = (185,2 m/s)^2 / r; 88,38 m/s2 = 34299,04 m2/s2 / r; r = 34299,04 m2/s2 / 88,38 m/s2; r = 388 m

And this is assuming that missiles can achieve both maximum speed and maximum g capability. At low altitude they can, but at high altitude their g capability will fall off far more rapidly than that of fighter aircraft.

1 – MISSILE have bigger turn radius but they turn faster due to faster speed
2- missile only intercept , they dont follow the exact turn of fighter
3 – at higher altitude aircraft engine doesnot perform really good due to thin air while rocket engine of missile dont have same problem
4- evade many missiles is alot harder

Modern VHF radars can pack up and leave in several minutes.

actually take at least 30 minute

Is it this post?
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?129627-F-35-News-Multimedia-amp-Discussion-thread-%283%29&p=2130811#post2130811

In that case…

Pierre Sprey went over that fact a long time ago, in fact his ideal fighter has 360* situational awareness with IR sensors, RWR capable of providing a firing solution at long ranges, and BVR IR/anti-radiation missiles. That “Pierre Sprey only wants visual-range dogfighters” BS started in the first place because some people can’t wrap their heads around the fact that radar is not required for BVR capability.

Anti radar air to air missiles ??? Wtf so they become useless if enemy fighter turn off radar or turn their radar away ??

Which could only happen by sheer dumb luck, as Typhoon’s cruise speed is so much greater that F-35 would have trouble getting into position.

Wrong
Typhoon.speed will do nothing to stop f-35 from flying at it́s service ceiling , and Typhoon huge RCS ( at least 1m2 with missiles , even more if it have fuel tank ) will put it in huge disadvantage

Extrapolating from here, PIRATE can detect a Mach 4 missile from a distance of 135 km, and a missile launch from a distance of 150 km. So the pilot has >80 seconds to evade the missile.

It actually sound very bull*** , seriously they just pull the detection range out of no where
how come detecting subsonic target at 50 km translate to able to find aim-120 at 130 ???
At low altitude IRST affected alot by weather , at high altitude air is thin => lower air resistance => much harder to detect missiles that already run out of fuel
And serious what the pilot gonna do? Try to out run a mach 4 missiles ?
What if F-35 using missile like CUDA ? The typhoon will then wait until it́s run out of 20 missiles ? ( CUDA range is no problem as at high altitude missiles decelerate very slowly even without thrust like have said before )

Wrong and wrong. OSF has a laser rangefinder with 33 km range, true, but passive ranging (by flying in zig-zag pattern, or by datalinking several fighters together and triangulating target’s 3D position, range included, from that) is possible at far greater distances

And what irst system actually doing that now ? Zig zag supersonic ?

. IRST can also provide velocity by measuring angular change between fighter and target as well as Doppler shift. By using these two characteristics, astrophysicists can see down velocity of star down to 1 meter per second. Fighter flying at 450 meters per second should not be too much of a problem, then.

Doppler shift in infrared actually very in accurate and only happened at very very very high speed , that why they only be used again star rather than fighter