The only fact here is the fact that there is no solid data from those who’s screaming about 0,00001sqm bull**** RCS.

No solid data? look at yourself

So where is your solid data and scientific research to prove that Russian radar can perform as advertised?

where is your solid data to show that continues curve doesn’t contribute much to B-2 stealthy characteristics at low frequency ( so that estimate it’s RCS using mesh modeling doesn’t have much error) ?

Where is your solid data to prove that F-22, F-35 doesn’t have RCS as claimed by LM?

Where is your solid data to prove that the Ukraine group have access to US government top secret information ?

Where is your solid data to show that F-22, F-35 RAM is the same as B-2 with no improvement ?

There is even a pattern published by Lockheed Martin for RAM that can absorb radiowave between 0.1GHz and 60 Ghz, where is your evidence that US stealth aircraft dont use it or it isnot enough to deal with low frequency radar?

I didn’t forgot about it and it’s pretty well illustrating that all these 0,001sqm of average RCS is a bull****.

RCS fluctuated between – 10 and – 20 dBsm frontal without take into account RAM and RAS, many RAM have absorbing capabilities more than 20 dBsm

I don’t care what you said. The fact is that since 1980s US defense industry officials love to give insane numbers for LO aircrafts, to make them look like a wonder-waffe – invisible and invincible. And the reason of that is obvious – the more hype, the more money.

Yeah because US always lie and earn money from their lie. the Russian always tell the truth

Yeah, coz all members of this group born right in the day when Ukraine became independent state and never worked during Soviet period in Govorov’s Academy… :rolleyes:

So where is your evidence, solid data to show that they get accesed to B-2 RAM and RAS?

The difference is that i said it about increase of Lw from 3cm to 180cm. That’s HOW. You didn’t get the context and startedto play a smart***, as i’ve said before.

Even that is wrong, RCS fluctuated in Mie region would depend on the ratio between aircraft size and the wavelength, the 180 cm wavelength size may give B-2 higher RCS but it not necessarily increase F-22 or F-35 or NSM RCS

No, of coz all these opearation manual of Soviet/Russian PVO are based on nothing! :rolleyes: Coz, Us never lost their secrets, yeah. Rosenbergs and Chinese hackers confirm.

Where did i said US never lose their secret ?
but without any evidence you cant just assumed that all of their secret is exposed to whoever want them. Otherwise, i can also assume that USA know exactly how S-400 works, and what is its performance and optimized F-22, F-35’s RAM, RAS, Jamming to deal with it

Of course USAF know more than you and me! But to know and to say, what you really know – very different things. That’s why USAF, together with StateDept are so upset each time we’re selling our radars or SAMs to “unfriendly nations”. They know – stealth isn’t a wonder-waffe.

They upset for same reason Russian gets upset everytime US put PAC-3 in countries near their border.
And isnt it funny how Russian now making stealth fighter too, even though their main rival has AWACS that use VHF radar ( given that low frequency radar can render stealth aircraft useless so easy according to you, they must be very dumb)

LOL, i said – SHOW them. Not make excuses.

It is not excuse, it is fact, you are like a child who keep screaming ” if they dont let me see their top secret information then everything they said is wrong

I’ve asked for RCS diagrams of real planes, not paper-planes. And who is this Cal Poly???.

Funny how you conveniently forgot about the radar scattering graph of F-35 right above it. And btw, unless you actually measured the RCS of real aircraft in aechoic
chamber then it make no different between a paper and a real plane here since both are measured by computer simulation

I don’t care. But without this info – i won’t get any screams about 0,00001sqm seriously.
Because without all of it – their creams looks like TV-shop offers which turn out as frauds, in the most cases.
In contrast to US abstract screams – our sources give specific wave-length and RCS of target. While US sources don’t give anything specific – nor Lw, neither specific aspect angles. Even during Soviet times our scientists told that this is a “little US trick”..

Seem like you didn’t read my question carefully, i said where is your scientific research data and evidence to show that Irbis-E, Zalson-M.. etc can look that far (300-400 km aways? ) you asked for a classified radar scattering graph to believe that F-22, F-35 have RCS like LM claim, so where is your scientific evidence to prove that Russian radar can performed exactly as they advertised? or US always lie and Russian always tell the truth?

Then don’t say that i dsimissed LMs and Northrop’s work. And i DIDN’T say stealth is useless – i just said it’s not a wonder-waffe like some people think. You see? Another of your Strawmen appeared – i never said stealth is useless, as well i never dismissed LM’s and Northrop’s work. All these fantasies are just in your head.

How funny, when i stated the fact that the Ukrainian group didn’t have access to B-2 RAM and RAS performance and characteristics because these are classified information, you said that i dismissed decades of their research. But when you said that the RCS value published by LM and Northrop is totally BS, you are not dismissed their achievement at all, lol, double standard much

You see? Another one Strawman! Why do you lie and place the words to my mouth that i didn’t say?
What i’ve actually said.
Now you’re liar – that’s a fact.

How is that any difference? you said RCS increase with wavelength, which is wrong

Yeah, coz LM transfered blueprints of their F-35 to Chinese as a sign of their good will! ROFL. As well as US government shared its nuclear bomb’s blueprints with USSR!

So is there any evidence that the Ukraine group get access to B-2 RAM and RAS? ( and they even go as far as published the classified information to general public) or it is still your wishful thinking?

Espionage, ever heard of that? Somehow, i think these military scientists from the one of the most respected military radio-physics academy in the world – know “slightly” more than me and you about B-2, its design and construction.
Sorry, but for me you’re not in the same league with Govorov’s academy and professor Sukharevsky.((.

Alright, so like Garry said, USAF obviously know more than you and me, and if we follow your logic if even a group of researcher from Ukraine can get access to US government top secret information, then it wouldn’t be so surprised that USA government also get access to all Russian top secret information ( all radar and sam performance) . With that in mind, their general still said that F-35 was designed to penetrate S-400, they still confidence that F-35 can operate in modern IADS, so obviously F-35, F-22 still stealthy in low frequency.

I wasn’t talking about FIRST low-frequency radars. Guys, where’re you taking all these thesises??? Protivnik-G(E), Nebo-XXX, TPS-77 – all these AREN’T old radars and all of them are declared as capable to detect low-observable aerial targets.

question is not whether they can detect stealth aerial target or not ( all radar can see stealth aircraft , just not very far ), question is how far ? , are they accurate enough for firing solution ? , can they detect stealth aircraft before they themselves get detected ?

As far(or close) as you wish.

No , if the radar are too close together then they will end up all stay within very small sector of stealth aircraft ‘s frontal aspects, you need to stay at 30 degrees boardside here

Really?! So, you simply dismissed decades of researches of Govorov’s Military Radio-technical Academy?! Noice… You should write them, right now – they should know.

Did i dismissed their work as useless ? no , but estimation is estimation not actual calculation, if you can measuare stealth aircraft RCS with just computer simulation and some basic theory then no one would need to built massive anechoic chambers, it is you who simply dismissed all the work done by Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin

I was talking about relation between RCS and detection range. No need to play a smart***..

You said “RCS is increasing with wavelength increase” that why i fixed it , because it is wrong

FYI, this modelling is taking into account RAM. You can read about this in description, page 265(page 5 of PDF).

I did , and they said since they dont know actual composition of B-2 RAM , they just make up a simulated RAM in its place and applied to the leading edge of the B-2 , we dont even know the absorbing characteristic of their simulated RAM , and obviously no information about RAS was mentioned

Address this question to designers of the long-wave radars, in both – Russia and US.

The purpose of low frequency radar was not to detect stealth aircrafts, on the other hand , if you think stealth aircraft are so easily defeated by going to lower frequency why dont you address that to stealth aircraft manufacturer all around the world ?

Really?! One radar vs one aircraft? I always thought IADS is a system – not a sinlge radar.

No , but if you have to stationed the radar so that they are always looking at the threat from 30 degrees boardside then how far aways they have to be located from each others ? ( use trigolometry to find out )

Approximation. Pretty popular method in science, mathematics and simulations, i’d say. :rolleyes:

Not gonna work here , continues curves doesnt create scattering , on the other hand if you put many of small pieces of metal together but still have the suddent change in angle (aka the edge ) then you get very high RCS increase at those point

I know that. And?… RCS is increasing with Lw increase,.

No they dont aways do , only a certain point in Mie region , if you go down to Rayleigh region then RCS can decrease exponentially

that’s all. And where did you get these numbers?! Where these 30km came from?

it is just an example

For example, even an export version of Protivnik-G L-band radar is capable to detect the target with RCS = 1.5sqm at range 340km. So, according to the “arithmetics of proportions” which is very popular on this forum, for the target with RCS = 0.13sqm detection range should be ~170km.

That would based on the RCS of B-2 from the simulation if we discard effect of RAM , RAS , and continues curve. But the thing is , all of these exist.

And?… What is your point here?
Again…AND???

Point is if you go lower frequency , RCS increase abit but gain reduce alot , so is it really worth it ? is it really a silver bullet again stealth aircraft ?

Really?! Coz for B-2 numbers say otherwise. For aspect +/-45* average RCS for 10GHz(Lw = 3cm) = 0,13sqm, for 1GHz(Lw = 30cm) = 5.46sqm and for 166MHz(Lw = 180cm) = 12.33sqm.

If you looking at their diagram , the B-2 at 1 Ghz and below have very high peak RCS ( about 100 m2 ) at the 30 degrees boardside which will bring up the average value of RCS significantly , but it’s frontal RCS value as depicted by the graph is still pretty low and similar to the one taken at 10Ghz . Secondly, they also admitted themselves that they dont know the RAM and RAS composition of the B-2 ( which is also important in estimating aircraft RCS ) . Moreover, one important aspect of modern stealth aircraft after the F-117 is the use of continous curve to reduce scattering from surface wave , but the computer simulation use mesh modeling to estimate RCS ( as can be seen in their model consist of many small pieces instead of a continous curve ) so there will be quite big error as well at low frequency.
In red flag , F-22 did various exercrise with E-2 and E-3 and still able to stay invisible , E-2 radar work at VHF , so if VHF was truely a silver bullet again stealth then F-22 should be detected easily by E-2 from 300-400 km , but it wasnt

Ahahaha! Nebo is not a part of S-400! And RCS in different bands will be DIFFERENT! You even don’t realize that 2,5sqm is given for VHF band, not X-band!

OMFG, enough of this stupidness.

RCS of stealth aircraft does increase at low frequency but not by that much , about 4 times( probably a bit more if we discard RAM ) when the shape vs wavelength ratio changed from optical region to Mie region according to physics

https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/radar-electronic-countermeasure/

THE ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE SCATTERING BY AERIAL AND GROUND RADAR OBJECTS is pretty solid and real scientific publication. And BTW, it’s not Russian – it’s Ukrainian.

This one actually suggest that RCS change very little between 1 Ghz and 10 Ghz atleast for frontal aspect



A wide ago AIAA also sponsored a competition for Uni student , researcher to design aircraft that has RCS about 0.05 m2 from 1 Ghz to 10 Ghz , if low RCS at low frequency wasnt possible then why would they put out such impossible requirement ?

Also

In an internal simulation series, Eurofighter found that four Typhoons supported by an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) defeated 85% of attacks by eight F-35s carrying an internal load of two joint direct attack munitions (JDAM) and two air-to-air missiles, Penrice says.
According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter’s head of the future requirements capture, the F-35’s frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated bystationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35’s most likely approach path to a target.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/eurofighter-boasts-typhoon-reign-over-f-35-345265/
AFAIK all AWACs have massive radar and use low frequency radar
EL/M-2075 Phalcon use L band
E-7 Wedgetail use L band
A-50 use L band
Ericsson Erieye use L band
KJ-2000 use L band
E-3 use E/F band ( 2-4 Ghz )
E-2C use UHF band

if stealth aircraft have RCS of 2-3 m2 at low frequency such as L band then why the need to put AWACs in some specific direction ?

Of course, every fly can be detected and tracked by radar. All it requires is to reduce the RCS threshold. Nothing in the world, not even a mosquito, can evade radar. Let alone F-22. This is simple physics. Theoretically, only a black hole can evade radar by absorbing all incoming electromagnetic radiation.

‘
question is at what distance ? if you can only see enemy from 20 km aways and they can see and engage you from 100-200 km then the radar wont be of much help wont it ?

Yeah, it’s not spherical – it’s curved surface with an area of 1000 IRST spheres. Now if you believe this huge thing has smaller RCS than metallized IRST optical sphere… Well, then you should believe in unicorns, as well, coz it’s a miracle!
Yeah, coz huge metallized canopy is protected from scattering with a…magic?! :rolleyes: It’s funny, how strong and blind your beliefs

‘
They do have transparent RAM too , for a trillions dollars spend on stealth aircraft they obviously thought of what some internet armchair general could have think about

So what classified information do you have that Chuck Yeager doesn’t?

Can you point out where did i said that i got classified information? dont try to use that kind of strawman argument with me! it only shows that you are too desperately want to win the argument but cannot come up with anything reasonable and logical.
I simply pointed out that there is no point for a contractors to share classifieds information with Chuck Yeager if that kind of information can get him in jail

If anything compared to program insiders, he doesn’t earn money off it which makes him less biased

Just because you don’t earn money from something doesn’t mean you are less biased. People still have their favorite countries, aircraft, manufacturers…. that they will be very biased when they talk about ( Notable example would be people like Picard or JSR )

. And God forbid he made friends with younger dudes that he trained or commanded, or any other way. This guy is a legend after all.Nic

yes, he may made friends with some young guys, no big deal, so how many % of them is involved with F-22, F-35 program? how many % of them get access to top secret information of F-22, F-35 program?, how many %of them willingly to share top classified information that can easily get them in jail with a 90 years old guy just for the sake of small talk?