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  • in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159359
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    OK.. what does it do and how does that affect the IR signature?

    mix exhaust with cool air, cool the heat exchanger
    as shown in the documents i posted in previous page, a hundred decrease in exhaust pume can reduce infrared radiation by something like 1/2

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159371
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    The F-35B and C barely get there, at all.. You need a set of specialized maneuvers which you won’t apply in real life, anyway..
    The A could have it a bit easier..

    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/08/f-35b-sea-trials-aboard-the-uss-wasp/

    several things :
    1) F-35B/C have quite higher drag than F-35A ( judging from their acceleration rate), the only equivalent ( aircraft with same role) of F-35B we have is the Harrier, equivalent of F-35C is F-18E/F, F-18C, Su-33, Rafale M, these other aircraft like gripen, F-15, F-22, Typhoon, su-35.. etc cant take off, landing vertically or doing that on a carrier

    2) in the articles they mentioned that aircraft have to turn to continue to accelerate to mach 1.6 , that doesn’t make any sense, turning doesn’t help aircraft fly faster, so only one conclusion we can take from that is these fighter need to turn because the testing area is limited, so they cant continue to accelerate on straight line, and then turn at high supersonic and high altitude the radius will be very high too
    either that or by turning they mean unloading which basically what all fighter pilot do when they want to accelerate not limited to F-35

    3) PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE 20 MARCH 2012 (Tom Burbage) Transcript:
    For any performance-related requirements, we artificially penalise the engine by five per cent fuel flow and two per cent thrust. Those margins are given back as we mature the design and get more and more solid on exactly what it is going to do. They are there for conservative estimation up front. We have not taken back any of those margins yet so, when those margins are taken back, the airplane will continue to be well in excess of its basic requirement

    4) the report is from an unnamed pilot, as we learned from the past, unnamed claim are often making up claim, or claim by actual pilot but the reporter adding his own speculation ( which is often full of mistakes) in it.

    5) the F-35B/C allegedly have not much fuel left after accelerate to
    mach 1.6, let say if that was true, “According to Col. Rob Simms at the US embassy in Oslo the F-35s optimal cruise is around 32000 feet and 0.75 mach where it burns about 4600 pph. Simplified this gives about 4 hours of fuel or 1600+ nm effective range (3000+ km) on internal fuel ( or around 800 nm combat radius) — still with a 2500 pound internal tactical loadout.”

    Mathematically speaking an F-35A with 2,500lb of weapons and 18,400lb of fuel would have a gross weight of approximately ~50,200lb and a .367 fuel fraction.So an F-35A getting .095nmi/lb should reach ~1750nmi range ( 875 nm combat radius) with 18,400lb of fuel.
    An Rafale in test with 3 massive fuel tank and 6 AAM in optimum profile can reach 920 nm combat radius
    ( The Gripen NG with 3EFT have combat radius of 1700 km similar to Rafale carry 3 EFT, Typhoon is said to have quite shorter range than Rafale
    , when they cut off the centerline EFT of Gripen NG, it’s range reduced to 620 nm, it should be obvious that Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale range on internal fuel is alot shorter than F-35 on internal fuel, if f-35 can’t sustain mach 1.6 for more than 2 minutes, how long do you think Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen NG can sustain mach 1.6 on internal fuel

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159446
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    All true, but technically, all these stand true for F-15E vs F-16C too. Attach 12 mk-82s and F-16 wont go supersonic, an F-15 will go M1.7 even with CL fuel tank. Attach 4 AAMs and EFTs, F-16 wont go M1.8, an F-15 will go M2.4 with 4 AAMs and full internal fuel. When it comes to maneuvering, F-16 DO have slightly inferior maneverability than F-15 for most of the envelope.
    .

    Andraxxus, someone in another forum doing some estimation of F-35 performance, can you check the validity of it
    ( like where it wrong, right.. etc)

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239089&d=1436795455
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239090&d=1436795488
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239094&d=1436795616
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239095&d=1436795659
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239097&d=1436795743
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239096&d=1436795703

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]239089[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239097[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239096[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239095[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239094[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239093[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239092[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239091[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239090[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239098[/ATTACH]

    original link here : http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25735

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159488
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    , needs forever to crawl through the transonic region

    F-35A take about 64 sec to accelerate from mach 0.8 to mach 1.2,
    Su-27 with 4 AAM take about 50 seconds, F-18C take 80 seconda

    only achieves M1.6 for 2 odd minutes before it gulps all fuel,

    can you provide any evidence that F-35 can only fly at mach 1.6 for 2 minutes in internal fuel?
    how long does Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale can fly at mach 1.6 on internal fuel?

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159491
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    In reality, the F-35 starts from a completely different IR signature level, in the first place. Kilonewtons mean energy, energy means it has to be converted into something…

    for the same amount of thrust : the helicopter will have less Infrared signature than a jet fighter, that is because helicopter’s rotor move significant amount of air at slow speed, a jet engine move a small amount of air at high speed
    for same reason a high bypass engine will often have less Infra-red signature than a low by pass engine
    a bit of reduction in exhaust temperature can reduce infrared signature significantly
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21095&t=1

    –special coatings on internal and external structures –

    here :

    F-35’s entire airframe is also painted with a camouflage topcoat that suppresses IR

    http://evangelidis.gr/embry/F35LO-ShortReport-HTML.htm

    –Ambient cooling air – where are the vents and bleeds, then?

    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18159&t=1
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/A_U.S._Air_Force_pilot_navigates_an_F-35A_Lightning_II_aircraft_assigned_to_the_58th_Fighter_Squadron,_33rd_Fighter_Wing_into_position_to_refuel_with_a_KC-135_Stratotanker_assigned_to_the_336th_Air_Refueling_130516-F-XL333-404.jpg

    The classified “sawtooth” features that ring the nozzle help consolidate the exhaust into a so-called “spike” signature, while other secret techniques have been employed to combat and minimize the engine heat signature. – that’s for RCS, not IR
    .

    sawtooth create more unstable exhaust pume that mixed better and faster with cool air thus better cooling
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21096&t=1

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159572
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    I am actually refering to you.

    the picture is F-22 in mil but be fair F-22 IR signature doesn’t look too bad compared to other aircraft even the piston one

    i see, your reading skill is not very good, what words in phrase bellow that is too hard for you to understand ?

    the picture is F-22 in mil but be fair F-22 IR signature doesn’t look too bad compared to other aircraft even the piston one
    ( that being said we cant measures exact infrared radiation just by looking at pictures)

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159649
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Brilliant.. We already got eyeball experts on RCS here, eyeball experts on radar performance we got, too… eyeball experts on IR is exactly what this forum has been missing.

    you must be referred to your friends Tu22:rolleyes:

    Looking at IR footage we can clearly see that what matters is near the airplane,

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159679
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    the picture is F-22 in mil but be fair F-22 IR signature doesn’t look too bad compared to other aircraft even the piston one
    ( that being said we cant measures exact infrared radiation just by looking at pictures)
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239080&d=1436762356

    Typhoon
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239086&d=1436762659
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239081&d=1436762485
    A400
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239082&d=1436762525

    Propeller airshow aircraft
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239083&d=1436762554

    A380
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239084&d=1436762588

    Sukhoi superjet
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239085&d=1436762616

    File :
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]239080[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239086[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239081[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239082[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239083[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239084[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]239085[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159728
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    You havent heard about it because it is close to BS.

    The actual IR suppression from fuel comes from cooling the hull around the engine and avionics, not from cooling the exhaust.

    Cooling of exhaust gases with fuel, ie letting the exhaust pass a heat exchanger in the hot section would cool the fumes for <1/300th of a second assuming it runs on dry thrust. With afterburner going the effect does not exist. But cooling fumes would make them smaller and lower the pressure in the engine giving lower exhaust speed -> lower net thrust. Also the time is too short for any cooling.

    Using fuel to cool down parts of the engine isnt anything new, for instance Gripen has used it for a long time http://techworld.idg.se/2.2524/1.174315/reaktionsmotor-12—bade-vacker-och-stark

    Sure, one could rebrand it as IR suppression if spin and BS is the forté of the manufacturer. In the case of Gripen it uses huge heat echangers behind the cockpit leading the heat over the back of the aircraft.

    Additives in the fuel will only make cooling of the jet go faster once it leaves the nozzle. So instead of having a tail of 30 meters it will have one of 28 (probably even less but it doesnt matter). Looking at IR footage we can clearly see that what matters is near the airplane, and thats stuff that the F35 does not tackle.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]239073[/ATTACH]

    F-35 use both LOAN nozzle and Topcoat to reduce it’s IR signature, while not as much as it can reduce radar signature, it certainly does help
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21094&t=1
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21095&t=1
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21096&t=1
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21097&t=1

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159754
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Pure BS disminish to 0.5 °. At least. ever heard about phae shifting?

    still irrelevant anyway halloweene
    in 1 vs 1 engagement : RWR need enemy to transmit constantly for very long time, keeping their speed, altitude constant the whole time for it to be able to guesstimate the range ( and the range still have very bad accuracy like 20-25% error) , all of these mentioned above are not possible again non cooperation target, and they are not possible again AESA, PESA either because AESA, PESA have very narrow beam and they dont constantly have the beam on target => RWR cant be used in 1 vs 1 for range measurement

    in many vs many engagement : in theory you can data link multiple aircraft to triangulate the location of enemy’s, however if enemy also linked information between their fighter keeping only 1 fighter transmitting , rely on RWR would equal leading yourself into a death trap
    Not even talking about LPI yet

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2159919
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Not massive fuel tanks , 3 supersonic fuel tanks. (1200L vs 2000L)

    can you provide evidence for that? sounds very weird that Dassault wouldnt use the biggest external fuel tank possible for Rafale if they want to advertise it’s range

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160085
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    The first graph isn’t from Dasault but from Defesanet test pilot.

    ok so basically what you saying is Dassault inflated ( out right lying) about Rafale’s combat radius? and not just a bit, alot
    they claimed Rafale can have combat radius of 1000 nm for strike mission with heavy bombs and missiles, but in test the Rafale can only achieved 920 nm with 3 massive fuel tank and only air to air missiles ( and the mission profile involved take off, cruise in optimum altitude to target and come back)

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160091
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    In theory? Maybe, but in reality I don’t think RWR is really suited for such task.
    1-RWR doesn’t have resolution to track such target. a 5 degree mistake would totally be unimportant for early warning, but even at realistic BVR range of 50 km, such mistake would cost 4,3 km mislead.
    2-RWR doesn’t have continuity. electronic scanning array signals are random short beams, a RWR detecting a signal may not recieve signal for several seconds, and second signal may come at different frequency. It is impossible to keep track of which radar is pinging the RWR at any time. Any radar appears close in line of sight could be mistaken as the other one. It would need tremendous resolution (back to #1) and processing power which aircraft doesn’t have.

    agree, it quite funny how many people think RWR is some form of super device that allow their favourite platform to challenge anything in BVR regardless of radar power and RCS different

    Of course there will be an advantage, but flying low should allow this advantage to be minimal.
    .

    i have to disagree with this
    the AMRAAM-ER for example is an improvement of AMRAAM with more than 4 times the range ( due to much bigger size, actually an ESSM fitted with the guidance section from the AIM-120) , when launched from ground, it’s ceiling is only 45k ft
    i really cant imagine how a MICA or AIM-120 launched from sea level can reach an F-35 crusing at 40K ft let alone have enough energy to turn, , especially when considering that air at sea level is very thick, motor burn time is around 5-6 secs, thus missiles launched from sea level cant accelerate to speed as fast as the one launched at high – medium altitude , thus their ability to climb will be worse ( it easier for a missiles launched from 40K ft to zoom climb to 60K ft than the one launched from sea level to climb to 20Kft)

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160164
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    While RWR on multiple aircraft -in theory- can be used to triangulate target’s location, this is insufficent to attack it as it doesn’t provide vector data.

    if they triangulate for a while and f-35 doesn’t change direction, I think they can get speed and heading? no?

    anyway i dont think it actually matter though
    in 1 vs 1 RWR doesn’t really help in geolocate aircraft
    in many vs many then datalink multiple F-35 and only let 1 radiate can easily lead enemy pilot into the trap

    3- They both don’t radiate, F-35 dies stupidly because EOTS more like an internal Sniper XR and is less suited to A-A roles than PIRATE etc.

    actually EOTS have IRST function unlike Sniper-XR, i
    PIRATE could be better though, i have no idea

    2- When BVR missiles are fired to very low flying objects, they have very short range, even if they are fired from higher altitude; ~20 km head on range for AIM-120B, againist non-maneuvering target for example. This will force stealth aircraft into IRST range, and missiles like MICA-IR and R-27TE can be used quite effectively.

    i know missiles have limited range when launch again target fly at low altitude but wouldn’t f-35’s missiles still enjoying advantage here? like they can trade potential energy for more kinetic energy while the one launched from aircraft fly at low altitude will have to fight again gravity?

    3-Low flying aircraft can turn very well due to increased lift, and turbofan engines are at their peak power to regain energy after hard turns. As missiles are too fast, they are already G limited to benefit from increased lift, and increased drag at low altitude will heavily degrade their terminal Pk. So evasion of missiles (by maneuvering) at low altitude is easier than that of high altitude.

    wait, wasn’t high altitude mean thinner air, and air to air missiles have very small wing thus it harder for them to turn at high altitude than other way round?

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160172
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    @ Andraxxus,
    With only variable turning radar on or off,
    1- If F-35 radiates, Rafale/Grippen/Typhoon will be aware of its presence, but without any means of attacking back, they withdraw or die.

    Or, the Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon now knowing the approximate location it will use others sensors (IRST or AESA) to identify the target and then engage with IR MICA or other AAM. RWR has huge “search volume” with poor tracking while focused AESA use and IRST has the opposite properties.

    1) using radar wouldn’t really help typhoon, gripen, rafale… etcsince F-35 is a stealth platform designed to evade powerful ground radar, these tiny fighter radar wont be able to detect, track or lock F-35 at long or even medium range .
    2) IRST would still have exactly same disadvantage : heavily affected by weather, cloud… etc and very short lock on range ( limited by LRF)
    3) and very important fact that in many vs many engagement it is likely that 1 or 2 F-35 transmitting and they give information to other f-35 by their stealth data link, thus rely only on RWR would mean Typhoon, gripen, rafale.. etc pilot leading themselves into a big trap

Viewing 15 posts - 796 through 810 (of 1,759 total)