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  • in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2133546
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Original non-LO rail here:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261786[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2133576
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Something from AIAA paper
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261785[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2136694
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    I was clearly not asking for that. The Niip catalog stated AESA radar with 1-18ghz where did not mention EW systems
    Notice how this statement is not talking about EW systems?

    No, they said “In the AESA, every element or group of elements has its own miniature microwave transmitter working in the frequency band from 1 to 18 GHz“. Which may sound the same as the radar has bandwidth from 1-18 Ghz, but it isn’t. Bandwidth of individual transmitter isn’t neccesary the same as bandwidth of the radar. As i have shown you an example of Northrup Grumman, with an AESA operate at different frequency for radar and ECM.

    I was right every time by directly stating what was stated by the sources, along with another source that stated what was completed, and what it was completed for.

    You weren’t. You did cite some links but it almost always either you exaggerated or misunderstood what they said. Your reading comprehension is pretty bad, this is quite evident in your question in China air power thread.

    The cutting-edge missile’s control systems need to be extremely efficient and accurate, said Wang Mengyi, deputy head of the Second Academy’s General Design Department and former leader of the laboratory.
    “Metaphorically put, the mission of these control systems is to guide a needle to fly 1,000 kilometers to pierce the eye of another needle,” he said. “For researchers from Zhang Yiqun Laboratory, their mission is to turn this seemingly impossible task into reality.”
    Does anyone know the RCS of a needle

    https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?140394-Chinese-air-power-thread-18/page42

    I expected you to read my source like the pages I provided but again for future references i will include a page and citation.

    I did, and no mentioned of “700 km” like you claimed, and you still ignoring the fact that for self defensive jamming, extending the distance make it easier.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261522[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2136804
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    I was talking about an AESA radar you mentioned patents of a jammer which happens to be completely different from the functions of a radar

    Either you can’t read English or you are deliberately lying and hope no one will notice. The pattern is for multifunctional array, aka array that can operate as radar and receiver and jammer. Most modern AESA radar have secondary EW functions.

    The transmit-receive cells are fully functional at broadband and narrow band radio frequencies. In the narrow band of 9.2 to 10.2 GHz, the active antenna system would operate as a radar system. In the broadband range of 2.0 GHz to 20.0 GHz the active antenna system is fully functional in electronic countermeasures and radio frequency jamming

    I am just going to try my best to completely ignore anymore engagements responding to you because it is tiresome as I said to hold someone’s hand and point out everything on a constant basis

    Provide citations isn’t holding someone hand, in any debate you are expected to support your argument with evidences, you just hate to do that because you always either exaggerated what you saw or fail to understand it and make ridiculous assumptions.

    “The Richag-AV is able to jam advanced sensor systems from distances of several hundred kilometers away.” I can find multiple sources of that if you want

    So exactly like I said there is no mentioned of “700 km” inside that page like you claimed, you made up that number because you read “several” and misinterpreted it as “seven” , you also didn’t know that it is much easier to jam at long distance because radar energy degraded quicker. Worst of all, you don’t realize where you are wrong and what make you appear ridiculous to others, keep thinking that it isn’t your fault, you are like those “flat earth” or “no moon landing” people.

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2137127
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Several are you twisting what is said as already stated? he said 4 of those mmics are to be used for krasukha, tarantula,khlibiny and himalayas did he not? He have an example of the 4 GaN UHF modules, than gave an example of the 4 EW systems…… Please atleast dont tell me that you think there are other EW systems that you think he is referring to? So what your saying is you actually think that the mig-35s,mig-29s and su-30s are to have GaN than their newer aircraft? Because 1. you do not believe that it is present in mentioned jammers from Rostec 2. They mentioned EW GaN is present on aircraft and EW systems but since you disagree with the 4 systems mentioned by Rostec since it is not mentioned than what other EW systems do you think they have that have GaN since they have literally stated that.

    1-It is entirely possible for mig-35, su-35, su-34 to have GaN modules earlier than Pak-fa, newer generation aircraft doesn’t always have all the newest bell and whistle because you don’t want the cost to be too high reducing the number you can purchase, and you also want to shorten developement cycles so that you can get them into low rate initial production as early as possible. Moreover, newer aircraft generally have others advantages that make them much more survivable and therfore doesn’t need new system as much as legacy aircraft. This practice is more common than you would expect, for example F-15/F-16/F-18 get HMD and high off boresight missiles much sooner than F-22 or for US GaN modules are intergrated into F-15 EPAWSS and EA-18 NGJ firstbefore anything else or ATP-SE more sensors than current EOTS, there are others example but the point is life # video game, all program need cost and risk management.
    2- [ATTACH=CONFIG]261494[/ATTACH] So they stated that their UHF amplifier will improve 4 specific jamming system and an unknow number of communication system, there is nothing to indicate that the later NIIP’s statement is about Himalyas specifically, you just assume that it was, but it could easily about some EW communication system or Taranlu, or Krasukha-4 or Khibiny..etc. If anything, Krasukha-4 would be the best candidate to implement UHF GaN modules, because there virtually it have no size and cooling constraint , and thefore very low risk, a support jamming system will also benefit more from high power UHF amplifier than a self-defensive ECM of stealth aircraft because stealth aircraft can already do well with jammer several hundred times weaker.

    Not even once have they mentioned the majority of their EW systems are GaAS there better not be any voices in your head to suggest otherwise which is why you post a catalog page but an actual quote

    I always try to post photos that consist of the whole paragraph, because it is neutral and everyone can see what is actually said. When you write a short quote , it can be misleading. Also, it is a fact that currently, on the market there are more EW system with GaAs than with GaN.

    Are you on damage control or something? As stated multiple times,
    You say they didnt say GaN but they state they used GaN. You say they use GaAS more than GaN while they only state the use both not even once stating they used GaAS.

    Iam not on damage control, but you either playing dumb or you don’t understand what they wrote.
    They didn’t specified that THEIR equipment use GaN and GaAs but merely that GaAs and GaN are usually used in active elements of present day EW equipment, which is true when the whole market is considered. Oh and Gallium arsenide is GaAs.

    no no no there is a huge difference in comparing apples and oranges. 2014 they state where the GaN MMICs are to be used, apg-77v1, N036 and apg-81 there can be multiple sources found that state they used GaAS.

    Where are the sources that state ASQ-239 and APG-81 uses GaAS? Iam pretty there are no information on what material they used, only assumption

    The difference is they mentioned the Himalayas GaN MMIC features months later say they have present GaN on their EW systems.

    That isn’t really what they said, they say they made 4 type of UHF GaN modules, which will improve size and efficiency of EW system, one of these EW system they mentioned is Himalayas but it isn’t the only one. Also they didn’t really said “they have present GaN on their EW systems but rather present day EW systems uses GaAs and GaN, which really isn’t limited to their product”

    The only EW systems they mentioned of GaN are their newest EW appliances.Give me a hint what other new EW systems that came out in 2015 to make you believe that it is GaN? I already gave you a clue.

    No and could easy be Krasukha-4

    What kind of example is this? Are you suggesting that there are different aircraft that can be fitted with the Himalayas?

    …..
    I meant the relationship between Himalayas and these UHF modules is the same as the relationship between B-1 and sniper-XR pod. You are trying to suggest that these UHF modules are created specifically for Himalayas, but they aren’t.

    4 GaN UHF modules, 4 systems that are to use GaN as stated, OK I hope you mean that the UHF elements were created specifically for 4 different systems? Unless your thinking those GaN mmics are for the mig-29 or whatever because they state 4 different GaN for 4 different specific EW systems.

    Help yourself
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261494[/ATTACH]

    Which is why I was asking a question in the 1st place if anyone knew the sizes of either being based off of LTCC besides the same size reduction and if one is applied with GaN using LTCC for EW systems is it applied for their T/R modules regarding their radar? That is all.

    So exactly what i said.

    http://tass.com/defense/942027
    Krasukha-20 The entire system is deployed within several minutes without a man’s participation, after which it is capable of disabling an AWACS at a distance of several hundred kilometers.

    That would make a decent source until they mentioned the Donald Cook , Su-22 incident hoax then all their credibility gone……..

    This is what happened with the US destroyer Donald Cook in 2014 when the warship’s air defense systems locked on a Russian Su-24 plane.

    The data appearing on the warship’s radars put the crew at a loss: the aircraft would now and then disappear from radar screens or suddenly change its location and speed or create electronic clones of additional targets while the destroyer’s information and weaponry control combat systems were actually disabled
    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/942027

    Either way, the number is quite meaningless without knowing radar cross section of friendly aircraft you want to protect and how far are they from the AEW&C
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261503[/ATTACH]

    http://www.deagel.com/Protection-Sys…003124001.aspx Rychag-av stating 700km, AVM unknown.

    There is no mentioned of “700 km” inside that page like you claimed, may be your English isn’t very good but “several” # “seven” , either way you would know it is BS if you understand the concept of radar horizon. By the way, why cite from some trash site like deagel.com when you can cite the manufacturer’s video ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unrtNOTJd34
    Honestly though, it kinda funny when their market department think it is impressive when a self defensive system can jam from 300 km when it should be the opposite, short range jamming is harder.

    Murmansk-bn http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Vehic…003384001.aspx max coverage 3000km

    Jamming Communication system # Jamming radar system

    If most of their new EW systems like were presently operaional before feb-2015 I would have not said a word. But the fact that there were no newer systems that I can think between 2014-2015 other than the Krasukha-4 and himalayas being presented between that timeline, that they were introduced with GaN between, that time and now state they have already GaN present in their EW systems.

    See above.

    I hope that you are pulling my leg 2-20ghz for ECM and jamming. OK how about a patent with that range regarding “”””radar””””.

    Iam not pulling your leg, each individual microwave transmitter can transmit between 1 to 18 GHz doesn’t mean the bandwidth of radar will be from 1-18 Ghz. You can see in Northrup Grumman pattern that the elements can transmit and receive between 2.0 GHz to 20.0 GHz, but only in the narrow band of 9.2 to 10.2 GHz the multi functional array will operate as radar. Due to this. Jamming don’t have as strict requirement about beamwidth and side lobe as radar

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2137784
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    By stating what is stated there?

    No, by making various leaps of faith

    2014 sources states where the GaN MMICs will be used since they are already created

    In 2014 they states their development program finished and produced several kind of UHF GaN modules. Then those modules can be used to reduce dimensions and weight of some ESM system.

    later in 2015 they have GaN AESA present on their EW systems.

    where did they even mentioned the EW system is Himalayas like you are trying to imply?

    So why do they have GaN MMICs present on their EW equipment(according to niip) while the only hinted EW to utilize GaN was on that Rostec PDF as a brand new feature. hmmm brand new feature using GaN, 2015 they say GaN is present on their EW systems. What does that tell you? Do you actually believe that they are not suggesting their 4 GaN MMIC types is present, but that they have other GaN MMICs that are present on their aircraft but not the ones mentioned on Rostec? pg17 of niip catalog “Usually, solid-state gallium-arsenide and
    gallium-nitride amplifiers are used as active
    elements of active phased-array antennas of
    present-day EW equipment.”
    You haven’t seen yes this makes alot of sense at this rate. But the source states GaN present on AESA systems. Unless your going to argue that the GaN mmics that are present just dont happen to be on rostec which has only gave mentions of which equipment will have it.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261439[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]261438[/ATTACH]
    In short, in a paragraph about cutting edge technologies for EW material and developement, they said usually GaAs and GaN are used in present day EW equipment.What they said is totally correct because in the market at the moment there are many EW system using GaAs modules, and some uses GaN modules. They didn’t say Their EW system uses GaN. Honestly, even if they did, there is no reason for us to believe that Himalayas is the EW system with GaN modules. For example: Northrop Grumman can correctly say ” GaN T/R modules are used in radar system we produced ” but that doesn’t mean we should assume APG-77v1 and AGP-81 use GaN (at the moment we only know that TPS-80 has GaN element). Or BAE can correctly say “we produced EW system with GaN modules” but that doesn’t mean we should assume AN/ASQ-239 use GaN, at the moment we only know EPAWSS uses GaN. My point is you making too many assumption and faith jump from vague information

    The developement project is already completed, says will be used…..UHF modules not created you say……

    You should read slower before you reply, i said those UHF elements weren’t created specifically for Himalayas, like you can put a Sniper-XR pod on B-1 but Sniper-XR isn’t created for B-1 only

    TheWell atleast the smartskin explanation you were helpful however ironically the Spectra I heard has happened to have GaN from another forum I visited.

    Spectra will have GaN in future batch, but it doesn’t use GaN at the moment. Nevertheless, GaN is not a requirement for the so-called smart skin.

    Same materials being used, same efficiency and size reduction claims.Why I also hinted the fga-35 (3d) is that its weight reduction as a radar from a previous AESA radar got drastically reduced by 1.5-2 times similar to the weight of the EW systems that got reduced by 1.5-2 times smaller being based with the same LTCC MMICs.

    Size reduction and efficiency in form of percentage how do you know know they are the same without a base number?? What if the previous version is bucky?. Imagine someone said his house dog is half as big as her father, his house cat is half as big as her mother, then someone else concluded that the dog and cat are equal in size. Won’t you think that will be a ridiculous assumption?

    Like stating how good its by jamming AWACs at 700km and LEO satellites at 300km? Your probably meant the context of saying whats the jamming power and what state the jammed equipment will be in. But I was just stating a previous mentioned GaN EW system and other systems that have surpassed it in range

    You have yet to give us the citation to these range
    Eitherway these numbers are meaningless if you don’t know the radar cross section of assets that you want to protect and their distance to radar. If they are very far from the radar then it should be easy because the return is weaker
    https://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=261061&d=1528944467
    beside jamming satellite is easy because they don’t have high power

    …At this rate do I have to hold your hand whenever I post something and even give page numbers prior like I already did?

    An important line of activity for KRET is the development of
    ultrabroadband antenna systems using the AESA active phased array
    radar. In the AESA, every element or group of elements has its own
    miniature microwave transmitter, working in the frequency band
    from 1 to 18 GHz.
    Powerful solid-state amplifiers, made of gallium-arsenide and
    gallium-nitride technologies, are used as AESA’s active elements in modern EW solution. Thanks to them, the equipment’s weight can be
    reduced by 1.5–2 times, raising reliability and efficiency by 2–3 times

    No you don’t have to hold my hand, but in any debate you are expected to back up your view with citations/links. Extraodinary claim need extraodinary evidence and all that. Anyway, individual microwave transmitter can transmit between 1 to 18 GHz doesn’t mean the bandwidth of radar will be from 1-18 Ghz, this especially true for multi funcional array. Have a look at this pattern by Northrop Grumman Corp in 1987.

    The transmit-receive cells are fully functional at broadband and narrow band radio frequencies. In the narrow band of 9.2 to 10.2 GHz, the active antenna system would operate as a radar system. In the broadband range of 2.0 GHz to 20.0 GHz the active antenna system is fully functional in electronic countermeasures and radio frequency jamming

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US4823136

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2138027
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Denial, not reading anything that was actually cited, calling something experimental when said to be completed and another source later state presently used on EW equipment…….These are usually the symptoms I have come across from patients that don’t like something being better than something they like

    No, it more like you don’t have a reasonable or logical argument so you can’t convince others to agree with what you want to believe.

    https://rostec.ru/upload/iblock/749/…0c077564e8.pdf page 63 so again why did they say they have created the modules and that it would be used as advanced components for weapons? It clearly states that

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261426[/ATTACH]
    I see nothing wrong with their statement, they created some GaN UHF modules and said those modules Will Soon be used in Military applications. That totally fine. On the other hand you said “their project was complete and that the GaN modules were already created for tarantula, khlibiny, Himalayas and Krasukha systems than feb 2015 this catalog states that GaAS and GaN modules are already present on their active phased array antenna EW equipment.” basically you implied that current variation Himalayas already uses GaN module while the source stated no such thing. Finished development of new technologies that can be used in future upgrades is one thing, transferring those technologies directly to current pre-planned production chain is another. You are equivalent to someone who think F-16 block 60/70 has TVC because of Vista program, or AIM-120D uses ram jet because of FMRAAM.

    Literally stated the model numbers of the 4 different modules as being GaN modules, Feb 2015 stated they clearly have GaN present on their AESA antennas on the catalog? How is it this hard to put the 2 together?

    I haven’t see the Feb 2015 edition and to be honest, it kinda hard for us to trust your words. Either way, unless they specifically said in Feb 2015 that Himalayas has Gan modules, I don’t see how can you make the jump

    It was mentioned on the rostec 2014 pdf that that the GaN modules were created for the himalayas

    This is you playing with word to make your point sound more “correct”, these UHF modules was not created for Himalayas. As stated in rostec, they are part of development project, and they will reduce dimensions of Khibiny-M, khrasnuka-4, Tarantul and Himalayas. This is quite different from something designed only for Himalayas, because only if these modules are made only for Himalayas then you could have made the jump you did in previous paragraph

    and it was mentioned that the Himalayas EW was to be used as a smart skin. Since GaN is by default smaller than GaAS modules this is a hint or indication it most likely is. Can you give a source where GaAS modules can be smaller than GaN or GaAS modules being able to fit throughout of the body of an aircraft?

    This is some very big leap of faith again for no reason. “Smart skin” can mean anything from dedicated RWR to dedicated ESM, they don’t have to fully covered the airplane and PAK-FA won’t be cover fully in transmitter either. Either way, you don’t need GaN to have “smart skin”, iam pretty sure they called Spectra and Barracuda “smart skin” sometimes even though, they don’t use Gan at the moment, nor do they fully cover the aircraft.

    I think I should have posted the rostec 2014 pdf book to begin with besides talking about it. Because the book clearly stated the project was completed, and that the modules would be used. Though I dont know why you consider them experimental t/r modules since they are completed and the fact that the modules were stated to be present on their EW systems from the Niip catalog.

    Same way I consider T-3, Hyfly to be experimental. It sort of a technology demonstrator.

    I am talking about the same LTCC modules with the same reduction of the in size and efficiency being exactly the same as the LTCC modules of their EW equipment that they have currently stated as GaN.

    Citation needed, you aren’t really helping your case here when you making many outstanding claim but doesn’t provide sources for us to double check. Instead of writing your theory, it is better to give the links first
    I don’t think you can estimate the efficiency and beside when you talked about “reduction in size” what exactly are you comparing it to….????? . It sounds to us that you saw they written “new modules X is 50% smaller than the old one” then you read somewhere that GaN modules is half as big then you leap to the conclusion that module X is GaN based

    Than just look at the estimated claims.

    You didn’t give citation for any of the numbers you written and beside they are meaningless without context, like saying your eye can detect things from several billions km, technically that true when you look at stars, but it does not help us estimates how good your eye sight is.

    As the niip catalog stated they have 1ghz-18ghz AESA radars.

    Where did they said that

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2138064
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Why wouldn’t you? I believe you misunderstand how fire control radars work. They don’t operate *simultaneously* throughout a 8-12 GHz range.

    That isn’t what I am talking about, of course I know simultaneous bandwidth of radar is much narrower than their total operating bandwidth.
    There are a few issue with very wide bandwidth radar:
    *Directivity: your fire control radar need to be accurate, to be accurate its beam width need to be narrow. To have a narrow beam width, the aperture size need to be big relative to the wavelength of the frequency you use. So what sufficient for 10 GHz is way too small for 1Ghz
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261423[/ATTACH]
    *Elements spacing: there is a limit for electronic scanned array on how far/close apart your T/R modules can be, this distance is limited by operating wavelength.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]261424[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]261425[/ATTACH]

    in reply to: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!- #2138182
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Ah man I am afraid I might rekindle an old fire causing arguements to explode again which depends how many critics are in this thread because my statements and questions might not be to their liking.

    I don’t want to be mean but to be frank, your questions and statements aren’t really to anyone liking, because either you don’t really understand what you wrote or you are being disingenuous because your documents doesn’t say what you you claimed they do.Then the lack of citation and extreme JSR like attitude doesn’t help either.

    I am bringing up this old catalog again. Pdf page 16 https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/4c…0b3fb41e86.pdf

    Rostec’s 2014 english pdf book on google pg 63 stated their project was complete and that the GaN modules were already created for tarantula, khlibiny, Himalayas and Krasukha systems than feb 2015 this catalog states that GaAS and GaN modules are already present on their active phased array antenna EW equipment.

    They didn’t, come on, why are you lying? last time you cite the document it was about some experimental UHF GaN T/r modules

    So these modules are using ceremic substrates and film technology which helped reduced EW hardware costs 5 to 15 times. However the FGA-35(3d) has used the same ceramic substrates and film technology they are using on their EW modules. The point that I am heading torwards is since they had GaN present on their newest EW systems and Guskov also stated that this same technology will also be put on the latest mig-35 in production. What are the chances that the mig-35 would be using a GaN radar?

    Guskov in an interview from a ato.ru article source was asked would a similiar based LTCC radar platform be on an SU-57 he stated no but we have plans.2013 production of LTCC modules began, late 2014-2015 EW systems were present with these GaN LTCC modules. October 2014 http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art…ew-system.html the new EW system acts like a smart skin. Guskov stated in nov 2012 that these LTCC modules will make a smart skin radar. Even though this says defense aerospace its says its got its source from rostec the same company that stated they already created the GaN modules for the mentioned EW systems. So since Guskov said that LTCC modules can do this for a radar to function like a smart skin.
    niip catalog stated they have GaN modules(based on ceramic substrates and film tech similiar to the fga-35(3d) which is LTCC) in feb 2015 present on their current EW systems

    Those are very big leap of faith and still lacking in links

    . Rostec on the both late 2014 sources says GaN modules are implemented on Himalayas, Himalayas acts as a smart skin for the SU-57. So this basically means Himalayas is using LTCC modules which happen to be GaN.

    Iam quite certain that they didn’t said that and beside, GaN isn’t a requirement to have smart skin

    The reason why I said I will cause arguements on this thread is that GaN UHF modules like the one implemented on the SU-57 have yet to be tested in 2020 for as NGJ for the F-35 and EA-18 Growler. While the SU-57 from these sources have shown that they already have a present GaN UHF on them since late 2014.

    You are making the assumption that experimental t/r modules will be used immediately on production line

    Pg 19 in pdf states of that niip catalog of ROFAR having smart skin, weight and efficiency similiar to the GaN EW systems they talked about to be implemented in the 2020s.

    ROFAR is a different thing

    KRET speaks of krasukha-4 jamming in the 300km which utilizes GaN MMICs as already stated by rostec 2014 eng book pdf. Krasukha-20 having a 700km jamming range for AWACs, Very new A-100 system to be introduced by 2020. Rychag-AV jamming 700km not counting the newer version they are creating. Peregrine falcoln 100km jammer for drones, Murmansk-Bn etc etc.

    I don’t know where you pull these numbers from but jamming distance isn’t a fixed value.

    Their issues for ROFAR is making it optimal as they say. PG-20 of pdf states they have AESA radars working 1-18Ghz ultrabroadband(However KRET was boasting about 1hz-100ghz for ROFAR and obviously being too close to either 1hz and 100ghz will not work well, But the KRET official did say for the mig-41 it used UHF). While most GaAS modules like the F-22s works at a 8-12 Ghz range.

    ROFAR is pretty much therotical at the moment, beside, fire control radar operate in 8-12 Ghz range because it give you a good balance between accuracy and atmospheric attenuation, and you wouldn’t want a radar that operate from 1hz and 100ghz because it affects others things like directivity, grating lobes ..etc

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2138592
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    When they outright lying with no shame ……
    https://twitter.com/MikeRoach3/status/1015212921071329281

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2142278
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    It’s also as “marketing-y” as it gets.
    Angle looks well within 120° to me

    Of course it will look “marketing-y” that the point of advertising video.
    Logically, if they wanted to illustrate radar jamming then they would just make the animation the ray from the nose (like in Northrup APG-81 video), no need to super accurate angle

    The don’t mention APG-81 because it’s not made by BAE.
    We know it can operate without AESA radar

    They don’t have to specifically mentioned “APG-81” but logicallyif they intended to show ASQ-239 using APG-81/ALE-70 to transmit jamming signal then they would have atleast said that ASQ-239 can perform electronic attack through radar aperture/towed decoy..etc. No such information was mentioned in the video. Animation of ASQ-239 perform jamming is the same as in EPAWSS and DEWS vid, so why the assumption and excuse that it must means something different?

    You’re assuming it must be an active ECM system because other active ECM systems are active ECM systems…

    No, i assume that an electronic warfare system that has a threat library and can computing/create jamming waveform for radar/towed decoys to transmit, will also be able to transmit RF waves by its own antenna. To sum up, i consider ASQ-239 to be an active system because:
    1- BAE themselves said it can perform jamming and digital electronic attack.
    2- BAE videos shows F-35 perform jamming in the same fashion they did with DEWS and EPAWSS videos
    3- ASQ-239 have cognitive jamming technology, which is more advanced than most jamming systems.
    4- ASQ-239 is able to computing/create jamming waveform for radar/towed decoys.
    5- ASQ-239 has more antennas than many active ECM systems.
    6- i haven’t heard of any internal electronic warfare system that can computing/create jamming waveform but at the sametime can’t transmit with their own antenna. ( Falcon edge/IDECM/Spectra/DASS/DEWS/EWPASS.. etc, none have that behavior)

    Sure but it’s not used when stored or part of ASQ-239

    And? Do you consider a fuel probe on F-35B an internal or external system?

    1. There seems to be provisions for active elements, as mentioned.
    2. Terma Multi Mission Pod

    1. The same period when people thought F-35 didn’t have a fiber optic towed decoy
    2.That pod will affect RCS. It called a multi mission pod because you can put many things inside such as 25 mm cannon, dedicated EO sensor similar to DB-110, GaN SUPPORT jammer similar to NGJ. We are talking about self-defense jamming systems.

    OK. What does it mean? Only the decoy itself is a transmitter. Basically, if I understand it correctly, ASQ-239 tells ALE-70 what to send and ALE-70 sends it. Same with the radar, no?

    https://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_AN-ALE-55_Decoy_Schematics_lg.jpg
    ASQ-239 uses the onboard computers to generate an optimum jamming pulse, converts it to light, sends it down the fiber optic cable, where the ALE-55/70 converts light to the appropriate frequency and radiates it. In contrast, the earlier ALE-50 had to make all its decisions with its limited onboard logic

    Maybe they use legacy components. They also list antennas and transmitters unlike ASQ-239.

    No they don’t, they didn’t list antennas and transmitters in DEWS brochure and video. They only talk about Digital Radio Frequency Memory jamming but that is an electronic method for digitally capturing and retransmitting RF signal. In other words, it refer to the process of record signal digitally for later use (adding delays/shift the frequency.. etc) . What will you use to re-transmit signal is not related. Using your logic, we also assume that DEWS is a passive system and can only trasmit through AESA and RT-1489/ALE
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=27494&t=1

    No it doesn’t.

    The illustration is the same between ASQ-239, EPAWSS and DEWS. So where is the evidence/indication that they refer to towed decoy and radar in ASQ-239 video but airframe aperture in EWPASS and DEWS video?

    I was reffering to 360° usage of ALE-70, not aft sector. Clearly it works in the aft sector. The question is does it work 360°, if yes, there you have your 360° active system. But it still isn’t ASQ-239

    Actually, how is that relevant?. If i understand correctly, you quote the original article to shows that because F-35 may not have aft jamming => ASQ-239 is a passive system. But that argument doesn’t hold ground because ALE-70 itself can operate as aft jammer.

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2142776
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    The video doesn’t proof anything.
    Maybe if there was a video that shows jamming outside the 120° lobe.

    Video directly from the manufacturer is as official as it can get.
    Firstly, you can hardly estimate the aspect angle from the video to say that it is or isn’t larger than 120°
    Secondly, at no point in their video they mentioned the APG-81 or did they even mentioned using AESA radar to transmit jamming signal.
    Looking closer, in both DEWS and EPAWSS brochures they said the system is “Interoperable with active electronically scanned array radar” yet that phrase doesn’t appear in ASQ-239 brouchures. As if they want to indicate that it can operate as a stand alone jammer.

    Come on now. It doesn’t say jamming through ASP-239 aperture as well. Show me one source where it says jamming through ASQ-239 antennas. There is nothing to indicate it operates exactly the same as Falcon Edge ect. either.

    For all Jamming system, transmit jamming signal through their own aperture is the norm not the exception. Every others system like ASPIS, ASPIS II,Falcon Edge,ALQ-135, DEWS/EPAWSS, ALQ-165/ALQ-214, ALQ-165, L203B, DASS, Spectra, MFS-EW..etc can jam by their own aperture and not rely on fire control radar aperture. Unless they specificly said ASQ-239 need ALE-70 and APG-81 to transmit jamming signals, it safe to assume it follow the norm and not the unique exception.

    ALE-70 does not interfere and is not internal.

    ALE-70 is basically a long extended antenna that carried internally and can be deploy

    Maybe towed decoys were added later? Obviously the reliance on stealth alone was never going to last.

    F-35 is not like F-16. You can’t easily just bolt on some pod and launcher without them affecting RCS. Towed decoys need bays and launcher. Both need to be designed before hand.
    https://i.imgur.com/LVdVKia.png
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=23633&t=1

    Waveform generator? APG-81 and ALE-70 produce their own signals. ALE-50 works on an F-16 just fine without active ECM.

    ALE-70 is not the same as ALE-50.
    ALE-50 is the first generation of towed decoy made by Raytheon, ALE-50 has its own receiver and a simple repeater.
    Later on, due to the need for towed decoy that can perform more sophisticated jamming tasks, BAE made ALE-55, which is a decoy with a fiber optic link with mother aircraft. So that it can rely onboard technique generator to transmit more complex signal.
    https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=360
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-ale-55.htm
    The much newer ALE-70 is also made by BAE and basically follow the same principles

    When deployed from the aircraft, the ALE-70’s countermeasure transmitter responds to commands from the countermeasure controller located in the jet and emits waveforms that are used to confuse or decoy adversary radars or radar-guided weapons.

    https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsus-approves-1087m-sale-of-ale-70-radio-frequency-countermeasures-to-australia-5893336/

    As I said we don’t know what’s inside the boxes, but the F-35 not having transmitter boxes is rather an indication for a passive system than an active one.

    Look at BAE, DEWS brochures and advertising video.
    https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/digital-electronic-warfare-system-dews
    https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/20161024141258/1434554719447.pdf
    In the brochures they also shows only two box, judge by their shape and compare those with EPAWSS brochure, it also lack the transmitter box. But i can bet no one question DEWS apability to transmit through body apertures

    Granted, but no graphic ever shows active ASQ-239 elements..

    Except BAE vids, and it not like we saw graphic of active ALE-70 before either, yet everyone know by now that it exist

    Using ALE-70 that could be the case, I don’t know about the limitations of such a system regarding FoV or usefulness when maneuvering hard.

    He was talking about aft jamming, and nothing about hard maneuvering while perform jamming. Not that you can make a hard turn with several ALQ-99 either. It is actually extremely unreasonable to design a decoy that can’t jam in the aft sector to deceive missiles follow the aircraft. Moreover, omi-directional antenna are actually easier to make. I see no reason to believe that ALE-70 can’t jam in the aft sector. To be honest, I think you just want to believe that F-35 has a major deficiency in jamming task, despite all evidences are on the contrary

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2142837
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Of course there is, weight and cost. Adding an active transmitter costs money and eats up internal volume from airframe. Active ECM jammers were very rare in fighter aircraft before the ’90s and even today many have them only as external pods. F-22 also has passive EW system only.
    Also, for stealth aircraft, there is simply less need for active EW, in fact often its use would be counter-productive.

    Except that you don’t have to add active transmitters , ASQ-239 has 10 antenna aperture. For comparision, Spectra has 8-9 antennas, i don’t see why it is neccesary to add more antenna to ASQ-239 for it to perform similar tasks.
    Actually, there are many aircraft with internal jamming system such as:
    F-16 block30/50 (ASPIS), F-16 block 50+ ( ASPIS II), F-16E/F (Falcon Edge) , F-15C (ALQ-135) ,F-15E (ALQ-135/DEWS/EPAWSS), F-18C/D (ALQ-165/ALQ-214), F-18E/F(ALQ-214), F-14D (ALQ-165), Mig-29 (L203B), Eurofighter (DASS), Rafale (Spectra), Gripen (MFS-EW). Except F-15 family, all others aircraft mentioned above are smaller than F-35. If internal volume and weight is not a big concern for them , it won’t be for something the size of F-35. It not like a jammer with the weight of 50-80 kg will make an aircraft that weight 13-14 tons much heavier (accounted for 0.3-0.4% of the total weight).
    F-22 didn’t have an active jammer because by the time it was design, it didn’t really need one, but F-35 was designed with rack and bay door for Fiber optic towed decoys (basically a towed transmitter) ,so i don’t see why would they limit its ability to trasmit through airframe aperture. Nor is any evidences shows that is the case.

    APG-81 has a FoV of 120 degrees has it not. Never mind the rays coming from the center of the aircraft, neither system’s antennas are located there. APG-81 in the nose obviously, ASQ-239 in the wing leading edges.

    At least, you admitted they try to illustrate jamming. There is aperture in the inner wing leading edge too
    Note that they showed exacty the same thing in EWPASS video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lluNa_BIrpg
    The point is they didn’t show that ASQ-239 rely on APG-81 to transmit, nor do they depict that it has to rely on the towed decoy to perform the task. There is no reason at all to believe it perform so different from EPAWSS.

    Not only APG-81 but also ALE-70. Note they don’t say jamming must performed with -239 either, but “give pilots the option to evade, engage, counter or jam threats.”

    No one say that it must perform jamming through ASQ-239 aperture, all we say is that, it can.

    The reason it can’t operate like any other internal jammer might be because it isn’t an internal jammer.

    That would make sense only if they didn’t said “Simultaneous jamming without interfering with radar and radar warning receiver”. If it can perform jamming and it is internal, then it is an internal jammer. There is actually nothing to indicate that it have to operate different from Falcon Edge, EPAWSS, ASPIS II..etc.

    Anyway, jamming without interfering can be done with ALE-70 or multitasking with AGP-81.

    But where is the evidence that it cannot perform jamming just like literally all other internal jammer like: DASS, Spectra, IDECM, Falcon Edge, EPAWSS, ASPIS II..etc?

    As to why, same reason the AN/ALR-94 (on which the -239 is based) is passive, active ECM was deemed unnecessary for stealth aircraft.

    If actice ECM is deemed unneccesary for the F-35 then it won’t have the towed decoy rack/launcher. The ASQ-239 won’t have a waveform generator and it won’t be able to jam even with the radar or ALE-70 aperture. The fact that ASQ-239 can use APG-81 to jam mean it has a waveform generator, if it can use fiber optic towed decoy, that mean it also has a frequency -light converter ( very similar to IDECM and ALE-55)

    I was referring to LRUs/black boxes (though they are actually light gray). The EPAWSS video shows the components at 1:15, among them active stuff like transmitters. Maybe that stuff is all integrated into fewer boxes (Rack 2A/2B) for the -239, but maybe it doesn’t have transmitting components at all.

    They have the same number of box, just with different name. Who know what really inside rack2A, Rack2B and countermesure controller box?
    The only thing different is that F-35 use the same aperture for receive and transmitting.

    Note how it says Radar Warnign System – 360° coverage and refers to the 10 ASQ-239 antennas as radar warning or emitter locating antennas. Both sound passive to me.
    Whereas the ESM beacon is coming from the radar with its 120° FoV.

    Well that graphic doesn’t even include ALE-70, which we know by now that F-35 has

    May = aircraft with 360° jammers, now or in the future (could include F-35)
    May not = aircraft without 360° jammers (like F-22, F-35, B-2?)
    Boeing is probably aware about what systems were required and are therefore included. Unless requirements were added after they lost?

    Actually, given that F-35 carry ALE-70, it is already an aircraft with 360° jammers.
    https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsus-approves-1087m-sale-of-ale-70-radio-frequency-countermeasures-to-australia-5893336/

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2142923
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Could be anything. They don’t say/write it’s performing electronic attack.

    They literally shows adversary radar sweeping, then the ray from F-35 wing aperture neutralize that. What else could that be if not to illustrate jamming?. Unless you think it illustrate some sort of EMP, there is really no other “thing”.
    https://media.giphy.com/media/BpLCqPcaBK3ExoNlkd/giphy.gif

    Electronic attack measures using APG-81 probably. ASQ-239 has access to APG-81 like it has access to ALE-70

    They didn’t say any where in their brochure that jamming must be perform through APG-81. It safe to assume that it can operate like any other internal jamming system that came before, can transmit from its own apertures.

    Because they are contracted to do so?

    The question is why. There is liteally no reason for USAF to limit the FoV of ASQ-239

    Exactly the same? For example, where does it say “Simultaneous jamming without interfering with radar and radar warning receiver” in the -239 brochure?

    You are really just reading what you want to believe now. It is literally right there
    https://i.imgur.com/fmD46V5.png

    Granted, all the stuff could be integrated into fewer components for the -239, but it’s certainly not clear.

    I don’t understand the logic here.For example Rafale spectra have about 8 antennas and thought to be fully capable of receive and transmit jamming, yet ASQ-239 with 10 aperture is inadequate for the same task.

    May or may not – not very clear: Stealth vs- Electronic Attack

    Firstly, he said may-may not. That what people say when they don’t want to disclose much information. Most people weren’t aware that F-35 can carry fiber optic towed decoy until ALE-70 showed up.
    Secondly, ASQ-239 is self defense system. The out put when it transmit from its own aperture won’t reach that of ALQ-99. So may be in aft sector, ASQ-239 is only a defensive electronic system. But in front sector, with the much bigger APG-81 aperture, it can also operate as standoff surpress escort jamming

    in reply to: 2018 F-35 News and Discussion #2142926
    mig-31bm
    Participant

    Without a source clearly stating ASQ-239 has active components besides towed decoys and APG-81, I think we should assume it doesn’t have them.

    BAE themselves illustrate ASQ-239 perform electronic attack from wing aperture in their video. They also stated ASQ-239 can perform offensive and defensive digital electronic attack and deploy multi spectral counter measure. For what exact reason that they should make ASQ-239 a passive system only?. Moreover, exactly the same wording is used for their EPAWSS brochure, should we also assume EWPASS has no active aperture other than the radar?.

    You are going way out of the way to read into the brochure what you want to believe rather than what it actually states

    Agreed, couldn’t have said it better
    I don’t think BAE could be any clearer with their wording.

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