Bomberboy“We are sourcing four airworthy engines, acquiring parts from all over the world, undertaking feasibility studies, sourcing AP’s and the relevant paperwork.
No move will be made until we are happy that we have built up enough parts and solved all the logistic issues.”
Hmm on the basis of the quote you have posted, this spells of contradiction in terms.
How does one “not make a move until one is happy that logistics and feasibility” are acceptable, yet before that is complete, already “source four airworthy engines, paperwork” and anything else that might be needed?
Surely, one carries out the feasibility first, including looking at the logistics of sourcing parts required and then makes the decision to “push the button and let the lanc feel air under her wheels once more”.
This would obviously be the point at which one would source the new engines (what about props for example?) and anything else that is needed including the dearth of paperwork that would be required. (this in itself will be a long and costly undertaking).
Reading the statement, i’m not sure that they have decided to actually fly it?
Whilst they would like to, they appear to only be considering flying it, many other things pending.
I’d love to see two lancs in the air together, but with that statement it appears to be a long term dream at the moment and is by no way cast in stone!
BomberboyAs you say….some museums do not allow cameras, let alone tripods!
However, I had no idea that Tangmere had followed that route, too.
I seem to remember that on a visit to Hawkinge a couple of years back, I was told that I could not take pictures…..period!!!
No reason given, just that it was the museums rules. I wasn’t happy having travelled specifically to visit it.
Needless to say I did not spend too long there, didn’t buy anything from ‘the shop’ and am, shall I put it, ‘unlikely’ to ever return on that basis.
So I decided to go elsewhere to not too far away Manston, where they had no problem with the use of cameras at all and so when in the area, I will happily return and might even wear the T-shirt that I bought from their shop.
So it sounds like Tangmere might be another one to really consider avoiding then?
BomberboyWould it be fair to suspect or percieve that Mantis is in someway the proving ‘system/technology’ trials/demonstrator with Taranis being the proving ‘airframe/technology’ trials/demonstrator which would in someway lead to a ‘magic joining’ of the two and abracadabra there you have it.
Now I know this may sound a bit too easy and simplistic, but that’s not to say it could not be the case.
Most people might perhaps automatically say “no way, there must be more to it that that”, but is there?
BomberboyThe fact is i have no strong desire for either the Typhoon or Rafale to be more successful than the other; i am happy to see two strong European contenders in play.
I’ll second that statement!!!
BomberboyWonderful, many thanks for sharing the link.
BomberboyThat must be the most desperate argument I’ve ever read 😀
Kovy, It’s not an argument, I don’t do arguments that I do not know enough about.
If you see that it was an argument, then i’m afraid that you do not understand and that it is your problem.
One thing is for certain, I am not desperate and the likes of what I determine as nothing more than an ignorant comment will be treated exactly as that.
My comments related to what was being perceived as ‘UK engineering bashing’ by someone from the same land as you, but somehow felt that in order to actually progress their career and give them more opportunities in that career, they had to come to the UK to study and get work experience in an engineering environment, as opposed to staying in their own country.
I found this distasteful, dishonourable and hypocrytical.
That said the poster has posted further giving some reasonable points from his side and even though one or two of my previous comments had been taken slightly out of context, they are not enough to bother me any more.
As it was, the particular posting had nothing to do ‘as part of the argument (slanging match)’, that all the Rafale & Typhoon fanboys are determined to have about who’s is best and which of the prospective customer nations are saying with regards to their evaluations etc etc etc.
I have said before, I would rather a european manufacturer got the order as opposed to a US or Russian one.
That fact that Rafale is in the preferred bidder status means that this is likely to happen and that as a result, I still see the UK getting a slice of the action one way or the other through subcontracts and the like.
BomberboyI live in the UK because I’ve just finished my master degree in computing science and information system if you’re interested. I’m working in the UK because with an UK diploma and work experience I can then choose to work in Europe, the US, Canada, Australia etc. quite easily. I thinking about moving to Canada soon, or Switzerland. I haven’t made up my mind yet.
Thanks for that information.
I am indeed interested for the following.
I’ll make an assumption that your obviously not and old chap early to mid 20’s which means you have spent much time on the learning path you have selected and would wish you all the best with that.
Having said that, you would therefore not have been able to spend the time researching and will therefore likely not have much actual hard evidence and certainly no involvement in the subject matter, other than from selective reading.
You have then bombarded and berrated a number of people on here that MAY, (I do not say that they do, because I know not a single one of you on this forum, but again I make an assumption), have much more knowledge on the subject than you do. They MAY even have involvement, but that has not made you stop and think.
It is likely that typhoon fanboys are Brits and that Rafale fanboys are French, so it’s easy to get drawn into nationalistic drivel.
As a Frenchman, you realised and therefore made a decision that in order for you to percieveably have bigger / better / more opportunities whatever, in this world, you realised that to get qualifications and experience in the UK was the answer. What does that tell you, particularly about UK engineering relative to French engineering and I spose to a degree, the qualifications from the faculties within our two countries and their acceptance around the world?
I really do not see why you give the impression that French manufactured kit is in many / some / allways superior to UK made kit, because I doubt you actually have any decent sizable comparison experience to work with and FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE, it is not! Just like some UK kit is Rubbish.
The UK is at the end of the day your host nation which you decided to come to so please be more gracious to that nation because I suspect you will personally benefit from having spent your time here as a result.
BomberboyRafale is different. France wants to keep the domestic assembly line open for its own needs, & would like to fulfil export orders from that line, where possible, to keep it economically viable.
So, on a simple footing, would this pose a problem if the Indians insist they want to build more of the Rafales for themselves?
I know that there are varying build numbers being quoted, but if the French only end up building a relatively limited number, can we assume that the production line longevity will struggle?
Of course any pending further orders that they are sucessful with would more than likely change that anyway?
BomberboyI’m done.
.
Really,,,oh excellent. Fantastic!!
An absolute bargain
So we finally arrived at the final conclusion, but hold on wait a mo further upgrade suddenly coming (not allowed for in the costing).
Now as I said, €50 to €55 for 10 years of use against similar number for 30 to 40 years of use make any claims of the Typhoon been cheaper laughable. These number will have to be compensated by other solutions (UAS or F-35). And again the tax payer (that include me) will have to bare the cost.
B***er we hadn’t allowed for another statement when he’d already told us he was done!!!!
Is that how it’s done?
If you say you’re done, then do so. Don’t say you’re done and then start with another bit.
As a non (jet knowledgeable) person I find this whole thread ‘discussion’ disappointing.
I have tried to read through all this thread in a vein attampt to try and pick up some good info (for my personal deliberations) and really find myself only a very little more informed than when I started.
I even tried to get some kind of answer to the thread title which was furnished to a degree by one poster. (not the one who probably thinks it was them though).
I read one thing and somebody counters it from the other side.
There are many on here that pick out info and quotes from various sources probably both good and bad on both sides and yet I wonder exactly how many of you on here actually have anything to do with any of the topics that are constantly being poured over time and time again, ie; how many of you are actually involved in either of the programmes?
I’ll wager not many, rather only a very few if any, yet there seems to be so much ‘expertise and expert witness’ type topics in the thread.
However, the above poster here who resides in the UK, would appear to be stating/posting, what a number of other posters keep referring to as drivel and the like.
Ironically, this poster does not appear to be very well supported by his fellow supporters.
If this poster is so anti-british engineering-esk or some other reason, why carry on working and living in the UK?
This tells me much and so I would ask this poster to read carefully before they do post even what looks to a non jet person like me, to be drivel.
Thank you.
At the end of the day, if the Indians have prefferred bidder status on the Rafale as being the cheapest, (I dieliberately avoid the use of the word best as unlike most of the posters on here, I am in no way qualified to say anything else, but which I at least recognise), then good for them.
I still believe that there will be something in the UK for this deal through various subcontract works.
Mention of subcontract works does make me ask a question for all you ‘self appointed experts’ out there.
With companies such as Martin Baker who IIUC supply the seats for the Rafale, how are these taken into deal consideration?
I’m sure that Dassault will not be in any authoratitive kind of position to be able to negotioate on behalf of MB, so do I take it that MB would have to be involved all the way along, particularly if the Indians are to end up building there own production of Rafales for example?
What about the cost for the future servicing?
Would these also be taken into any whole life costs?
I appreciate these types of cost would be applicable regardless of who supply the Indians their new fighter.
BomberboyWhat !! No Leyland P76….or have they all eventually rotted away ??
Oohh dear,,,what an ugly car!!!
BomberboyWhat !! No Leyland P76….or have they all eventually rotted away ??
Oohh dear,,,what an ugly car!!!
BomberboyYes you wrote complete non sense as far as I’m concerned. Rafale stoop up because the Typhoon program is badly managed.
That’s fair enough to a point although where you say “Yes you wrote complete nonsense as far as YOU are concerned” and on that basis alone, because it was only as far as you were concerned and not based on anything else, i’ll happily choose to treat your comment with the dismissive lack of substance it was offered with.
That said, you didn’t really tackle the quote relating to the french government money vis-a-vis the thread title, which I thought and still do, was in some way relevant.
Please feel free to add more?
In the end I don’t really care who sells what because I believe there will always be something in it for the UK either way…eg; Martin Baker seats.
I happen to like both airctaft and don’t have a favourite. I have sat in a Rafale when an opportunity presented itself in my lap, but not in a Typhoon and i’m not in a hurry to do that unless the opportunity falls into my lap in the same way the Rafale did.
The Rafale developments that have been funded by the french government have all been required by the french AdlA & MN. Hence I don’t see how you can call this subsidy.
Because at the end of the day and i’ve seen it mentioned in this thread a number of times, there are ‘expensive’ development costs associated with Typhoon that has to be passed onto it’s customers whereas the Rafale has had it all nicely paid up for with french tax-payers money.
How much would these costs be?
As it stands it absolutely gives it a pricing advantage over its competitors.
If the Rafale was worse that the Typhoon even with all these paid for developments, then that would make it bad, but I don’t believe it is worse so that makes it good.
Besides, even if it were true (which is most probably not), I think it’s game if it means that you can keep the competences to build a fighter aircraft within your country.
Apart from your irrelevant summation on whether its true or not, the rest of this statement I would happily go along with as i’d probably do the same.
But it’s still a subsidy which relates to the thread title.
I know that the EU is all about stripping european nations about their sovereignty, but everything that allows France to retain it a bit more is already a victory.
Nic
I’d happily go along with that as well, although how much as nations we can call as “already a victory” i’m not sure?
BomberboyBaring in mind the title of this thread, I wondered about this element……..
One thing to take into account is that rafale lattest standard was fully funded by the french government which is obviously not the case for the Typhoon offered in India. So dassault does not need to bill the R&D while Typhoon Gmbh has to.
Playing :dev2: advocate, this statement tells me that Rafale has indeed been subsidised by the french government and although I am in no position, nor wish to be, to determine whether it’s illegal or not, it certainly would seem to be an advantage factor that would absolutely help make the Rafale being purportedly cheaper than the typhoon.
Even if it is a legal subsidy, it has clearly helped dassault be able to offer Rafale “cheaper” for the indians than the typhoon.
If this wasn’t the case, how would Rafale have stood up to it then in both costs and/or capability?
I just thought i’d chuck this in :diablo::diablo::diablo:
Of course I could be typing complete b******s, but I enjoyed it never-the-less.
BomberboyA post on Facebook claimed that they “left the gear down too long and cooked the motors”
?????
What does this mean? What Motors? Undercarriage Motors?
If they mean the undercarriage motors, then the undercarriage set up must be wrong or faulty because they should cut out automatically upon reaching travel limits in either direction.
BomberboyI can,t see any American Air Day on the list for smaller Events for Duxford ? perhaps its too early in the year
Indeed it is!!
Currently listed as Friday 17th OR Friday 24th August (date to be confirmed)
HTH 🙂
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