MiG:
This paragraph may tell you why, if internal fuel wouldn’t be reduced, I couldn’t image why EW of the EF-111A surprisingly jump 20%!!
Specifications of the EF-111A Raven:
Two Pratt & Whitney TF30-P-3 turbofans, 10,750 lb.s.t. dry, 18,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning. Maximum speed: 1377 mph at 40,000 feet. Initial climb rate 11,000 feet per minute. Service ceiling 45,000 feet. Normal range 929 miles. Dimensions: wingspan 63 feet 0 inches (maximum), 31 feet 11 1/2 inches (minimum), length 76 feet 0 inches, height 20 feet 0 inches, wing area 525 square feet. Weights: 55,275 pounds empty, 70,000 pounds loaded, 88,948 pounds maximum takeoff.
The normal range which means no EFTs carried is 1495km. quite believeable.
I have no doubt that many a Me-109 pilot mite have thought the same thing about a P-47 Thunderbolt during WWII. That is until they met in combat……………:diablo:
If double powerplant on F-35:D
MiG:
The 17883 liter fuel for the Su-24 is believeable, whereas over 19000liter fuel for the Su-24 could be conceived as 3 EFTs carried.
The mistake made by Sens mas a cause de your confusion.
Some concepts of dynamic increment will make clear for you:
presume
△EFTs is an increment for Su-24 EFT added more
△Rs is an increment of range for Su-24 accompany with more EFTs added.
△EFTf is an increment for F-111 EFT added more
△Rf is an increment of range for F-111 accompany with more EFTs added.
Then real thuth is △Rf/△EFTf >> △Rs/△EFTs (EFT >2)
Indubitably, because the basic number of internal fuel for the F-111 has already been much more than Su-24, so it was possible that range for the Su-24 with a couple of standard EFTs would be still less than F-111 only carry internal fuel a little bit. But they are almost same at this time. otherwise, if the F-111 carry two EFTs,which won’t enlarge 1/3 more range for itself, how can it take 1/3 more range compare with Su-24 which two 3000liter EFTs has already been loaded? Remember each EFT for Su-24 almost 1/4 bigger than F-111’s.
Certainly, if the F-111 carries four 2270 L EFTs, its range possibly be large enough, but meanwhile, warload on F-111 under this situation won’t be reach 3 tone as well as the Su-24.
The war-load for each pylons underwing was also maximum warload for F-111’s pylon each I ever saw.
So, our stand is if warloads was equivalent, there would be no more EFTs for enlarging the range of the F-111, because no more pylons provided.
BTW,Would you please post all of Slavonian web concerning Su-24 specifications follow.
MiG:
I think that three EFTs carried by SU-24, which is out of question, as well as 6 EFTs carried by F-111. Most official web wouldn’t give a correct data, esp, for important data of combat or judgment.
To show, that you tried to cheat the readers here and not even be ashamed about that.
I only cheat you here, just because the process I made in calculation was not in terms of your hope.
I believe you didn’t cheat me because you hid the data you adopted from me.:p
except repeat same word, what more can you do?
It seems that simple math is behind the scope of someone. Your given data.
2775 km = 100%
3700 km = XX=133%
YES, UNDER THIS CONDITION, SU-24 WOULD STILL CAN LOAD 3TONS WEAPON APPROXIMATELY, BUT ONLY THAT SMALL WEAPON BAY LEFT TO THE F-111, WHICH ONLY CAN CARRIED TWO 750PONDS WEAPON(=681KG BOMBS) IF YOU ADOPTED DATA FROM JAWA.:p
IF YOU FEEL UNFAIR, LET’S COUNT THIS
ACCORDING TO THE LINK YOU GIVEN: SIX 2273 LITER FOR MAXIMUM EXTERNAL FUEL / 19240 LITER FOR TOTAL INTERNAL FUEL = 71%
THE FERRY RANGE ACCORDING TO YOUR SOURCE IS ABOUT 5100KM. TO COUNTERACT THE ADDITIONAL RANGE EFTs GIVEN, THE RANGE WITHOUT EXTERNAL FUEL FOR THE F-111 WON’T BE OVER 3100KM, IF EXTRA DRAG IGNORED. CONSIDERING ADDED DRAG, WE GIVE A 20% INCREASING RANGE TO THE F-111, THEN WE CAN GET A RANGE DATA WHICH MUCH MUCH CLOSE TO THE 3700KM JAWA GIVEN.
PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE JAWA NEVER ADOPTED 2775 AS ANY SORT OF RANGE FOR THE SU-24
Very convincing, despite higher installed thrust and higher sfc.
HIGHER THRUST MAKES LONGER RANGE OR NOT?
WHICH ENGINE HAS HIGHER SFC?
YOU SAY IT, BUT NOT ME
You do ignore the data from producer.
PRODUCER? THE EW OF THE F-22 ON LOCKHEED OFFICIAL WEB IS OVER 19 TON, I BET YOU’LL BE MUCH MUUCH GLADE TO SEE MY IGNORANCE OF THAT.
PLEASE DON’T IGNORE THAT F-111 WEB CLAIMED SOME VERSION OF THE F-111 HAD 8 PYLONS FOR ANY LOAD, BUT THEY WERE NOT CLAIM HOW LONG RANGE THE SU-24 WILL BE, THEN WHAT DO YOU MEAN SAME SOURCE?
IF I IGNORED SOMETHING ADVISEDLY, DID YOU IGNORED SOMETHING DELIBERATELY AS WELL?
Will you allow me calculate data according to this: with ferry range being 3165 miles with maximum external fuel being carried. Internal fuel capacity was 5043 US gallons. With underwing fuel tanks, a maximum of 7443 US gallons of fuel could be carried.:diablo:
You do claim a lower internal fuel
WHICH ONE IS LOWER THAN REALITY?
You do create an artificial range from different sources.
HAVE YOU EVER READ PRODUCT FILE FROM SUKHOI BEREAU?
You do “prove” your credibility by that for all to see.
I do prove my credibility by that if not be accurate but reasonable at least for all to see.😎
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will “redefine the concept of multirole strike” aircraft, Lockheed Martin officials say, but they offer few details to flesh out that claim.
The F-35 looks too fat and overweight???
It will no longer to be a fighter…..
That must be his personal opinion 😆
When it comes to ferry-range it is the max possible range with the max possible fuel load in doing so.
It is max. internal + external = liter in total divided by the ferry range in km.
At MTOW the ceiling of the F-111 is limited to 15000 feet. To reach max ferry range the F-111 is never loaded to MTOW.
Internal fuel is ~14815 kg or (0,77 specific)~ 19240 liter to start with.
The max lim range of the F-111 was 5700km, the min lim range for it was recorded as 3700km, we adopt a mid one 4700km
The external fuel tank under F-111’s wing could be 6, 4, 2, we adopt a mid one, say 4.
So internal+external fuel F-111 carried was 28332 liters.
28332/4700 approxi to 6.03l/km
Meanwhile, the F-111 still carrying about 3000kg warload under another two pylons and bomb bay.
For Su-24, 11883+2*3000=17883liters
range of max lim was recorded as 3600km, min lim as 2775, so mid data is 3187.5km
17883/3187.5=5.61l/km meanwhile it carry 5 missiles under fuslage and outboard pylons, weighs 3000kg.
Now we got
6.03l/km for F-111
5.61l/km for Su-24 even lower then your 5.66l/km
If the external fuel tanks loaed under F-111’s wing was reduced to 2, the data still be 5.06l/km much closer to 5.61 for the Su-24.
How do you get 30% more range for F-111?
Even if your data adopted, we still couldn’t see how to be relevent 30% more range?
How many fuel does the Su-24MK need to go 2775 km?
How many fuel does the F-111 need to go 2775 km?That is simple math to do.
Dear Sens:
If I came here to discuss unjustifiably, I would say F-111 did its range with 6 or 8 2276liters external fuel tanks, which almost be 3/4 of its internal fuel. I can insist this because I do had source that present ferry range of the F-111 was 3700km, so the result will be that same amount fuel needed by both the F-111 and the Su-24.
You do claim correct data and none does prevent you to present that.
I didn’t say my data must be correct, I said EXACT. The data I present in this thread before, MiG also quote it not only once, but the data which guide to the way you are not glade to see, or say which deviate your ideology so cause your refusing.
Let’s keep them simply, unified all of units to liter.
2271 liters is the capacity of each external fuel tank F-111 could carry.
19112 liters is the internal fuel capacity F-111 carried11883 liters is the internal fuel capacity carried by Su-24
3000 liters is the capacity that each external fuel tanks under wing glove of Su-24 containsso we have those data fella:
Su-24 had internal fuel + external fuel = 11883 + 3000 * 2 = 17883 liters
F-111 got merely internal fuel 19112 liters, which still be greater than 17883 to 19112-17883=1229liters (about900-950kg)please pay attetion to such little 1229 liters fuel won’t cause so many gap of range between F-111 and Su-24, if the fuel consumption of engines these two jets fitted are similar. Noticed we had the 0.8 of Aardvark vs 0.76 of Fencer or 0.67 of Aardvark vs 0.76 of Fencer.
If all of other conditions are same, then 1229/19112, we got 0.064 which means, the F-111’s range will only be longer than Su-24 6.4%.
If the SFC of engine F-111 used is 0.8, then [0.8-0.76]/0.8=0.05=5%, this will almost counteract the most of 6.4% longer range F-111 originally had. But if we used 0.67, then the advantage of range F-111 gained will be enlarged to 12%+6.4%=18.4%
The 18.4% is very much closer to the real gap of range 23%. The 23% come from [4700km -3600km]/4700km, if you insist the range of F-111 merely with internal fuel is 4700km. Where the rest 4.6% goes? I give it to the drag Su-24’s external fuel tanks brought. If you guys insist the range of F-111 will be 5777km, I would also like to accept this data, then we will get 36.8% of advantage. 36.8-18.4=18.4 which will satisfied somebody who insist the drag coefficient external fuel tanks brought will be 20%. I think 18.4% is more reasonable for the EFT’s drag coefficient.
Now we’ve done, each aspect can accept. The range of Su-24 even with two EFTs only reach 2/3 of F-111 can do with internal fuel only.
If we presumed both F-111 and Su-24 without external fuel tank, then 2775km range of Su-24 is reliable, so under this condition, then range of Su-24 will be only half range of F-111. 1/3 will be absolutely unacceptable.
The condition you given still was not sufficient, you just repeat 30% more range for the F-111 without any ground. I can see through what you hope to say but fear the shadow behind it.
The VG inlet gives more advantages for speed to F-111, either for lower drag while the F-111 makes transonic. But you have pre-known, there was no proportional relation between transonical drag and combat radius.
On one side, you want to give the related range for data of fuel, on the other side, you just ignore the present range of the F-111 was never 30% more than Su-24. You just fall in fantasy which you hope to see.
Name the data where. Not my fault, when you are unable about basic physics.
So you still have to explain, where the difference in fuel economy comes from?
F-111 = 5,66 l per km
Su-24 = 7,41 l per km
From every l of fuel a F-111 generates 30,9% more range!
It wouldn’t be right ever, if your calculation was grounded on wrong data, even you copy it thousands times.
To intergrate each aspects, which only give 1/4 more range for the F-111
yes, at least the data is exact, but I saw somebody here even used rootless data to calculate. The baffling result beguile one to very wrong way. Remeber overly depreciate Soviet aircraft won’t enlarge your ability any better.
So you still have to explain, where the difference in fuel economy comes from?
F-111 = 5,66 l per km
Su-24 = 7,41 l per kmFrom every l of fuel a F-111 generates 30,9% more range!
The dividend you adopted is wrong.
A hopeless case, when it comes to the understanding of the basics of physics. To read something and do understand the meaning of that are two different worlds sometimes.
So someone has to live with the mystery, that the F-111 can generate at least 1/3 more range from every kg of fuel carried over the Su-24.
The prescribe minimum range Su-24 had is 2775km from Sukhoi web, same data of the F-111 is 3700km from JAWA. the rate is 0.75 where does your 1/3 come from?
We admitted turbofan is superior than Turbojet, but as we quoted previously, the SFC of the TF30 has no 1/3 advantage more than AL-21 neither on afterburner nor without afterburner.
Lacking fuel tank in wing a cause de internal fuel of the Su-24 less than F-111 but, bomb bay also occupied space in fuselage of the F-111, so 11 ton for Su-24 and 14tons for the F-111 also is reliable and reasonable. the rate is approxi to 3/4, where does 1/3 range at least base on?
The size of Tu-22 almost same as B-1, so it is hard to say, Tu-22 is a sort of bomber which is more efficient than neither F-111 or Su-24.
The undercarriger was designed on F-111 makes inlet shorter so that structual weight reduced. Dual-wheel which Su-24 undercarriage used gives a using flexible for wild runway but more space in aeroframe occupied.