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franc

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  • in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2399028
    franc
    Participant

    During the speed blow hypersonic, LERX gives a really small lift also small drag except the AoA becoming high to 45°, for example SR-71.
    During the hypersonic, canards provids a big lift with also bigger drag so main wing shall be swept larger, XB-70 for example.
    Both of them above won’t take a high AoA.

    With Hi AoA, the LERX leading to the lift which also is higher and although drag will be big but Cl still is going up.
    With Hi AoA, the Canards gives a lift tends to be smaller accompany with AoA tends to be high, which also causing a small drag within that.

    Consider most maneuver is being in AoA which won’t be higher than 45°, so the lift LERX given would be smaller than canards, that’s why all of jet with LERX was designed as a smaller swept wing compare to all of canards fighters. Because they need a comparable small swept wing to compenate the lift LERX lost, whereas, CANARDS, is suits a little bit higher swept wing for promoting accelleration, dereasing total drag of airframe and raising turn rate.

    Remember a swept angle big like LERX, won’t supply lift how much unless its situation is unusual like Hi AoA.
    Canards, is not proper to a very Hi AoA, but whith most flight envelope, it shares a great Cl whcih means,as long as you don’t fall in stall, it will gives a comparably larger lift than LERX although its drag also raising simultaneously because its swept angle is not as big as LERX.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2399902
    franc
    Participant

    With respect Tailplanes vs Canards well both have advantages and disadvantages, the canard has added drag and less lift, the tailplane relatively speaking more sensibility to supersonic center of lift shifts.

    Roughly, Canards with delta makes aircraft more like an arrow so that less drag being the speed approaching sonic.

    About LERXs vs Canards, there is no evidence canards are better, since basicly both generate vortices and add lift ahead of the center of gravity , in the case of the LERX this is due to wing fuselage blending that starts at the apex of the LERX

    Also there is no evidence displayed LERX is better, this is why Sukhoi PAK FA added a movable LERX which effects like a canards more than a LERX.

    Now with respect the F-22, we have no evidence it does not satisfy the conditions to do the Cobra on aerodynamic controls alone such as good lateral stability and good pitch control besides hysteresis but at least we know it has relaxed stability.
    However we know it can do the Cobra and it has a 28 deg/s STR, in my opinion the F-22 has excellent aerodynamics.

    F-22 is not a ruler to measure tailed layout is perfect or tail is better than canards.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2400365
    franc
    Participant

    In terms of your theory, Rafale with that rooting extension of forebody and LERX of wing will win more powerful lift than F-16, and EF also has its own air strake aside the fuselage, so does Gripen as well.
    If there is no canards, their performance will just same as F-16, thanks by canards they get the advantage.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2400377
    franc
    Participant

    there a few things you have made artificiously to prove your point, first the F-16 has lerxes, you have conveniently presented the F-16 as it was a Mirage F1 without forebody strakes,

    Strake is strake, LERX is LERX, don’t mess them.

    the forebody strakes aka LERXes have a influence on the F-16 center of lift, they do move forward the center of lift of the main wing ahead at low speeds

    Baby, your post like this is opposing yourself.
    The LERX will moving CoL forward at low speed, which cause tail-surface deflecting up more to balance since the trimming force against this moving is smaller and smaller. Surely the distance between CoG and tail surface is fixed, so forward going CoL relatively will cut the moment arm of F-16 down.
    Meanwhile, more up angle of deflection means more trim drag aussi.

    ah but here is the thing that probably you do not expect, at transonics speed that shift of the F-16`s center of lift is more limited than at low speeds? why do you think that happens yeah it is because of the LERXes lift , now at low speed there is not supersonic shift but at transonic there is, so it balances the LERXes lift.

    :p Again, your post is against yourself.
    In supersonic or approaching transonic, the most an aircraft be afraid of is wave drag, so it is better that a horizontal tail-surface which primarily up deflected being subsonic to balance the CoG against front CoL now should revert to be level or say position zero since CoL will moving rearward following the speed close to sonic. But you say because that LERX the rearward moving is so slight that almost can be ignored or be so slight that won’t be able to causing horizontal tail return to zero, which means the tail will be forced stay at a deflected angle. That will bring a much strong wave drag at tail while the speed over 0.7 mach.

    Now if you want to know why is the F-16 less capabe is simple higher wing loading due to a smaller wing and lesser thrust to weight ratio.

    Rubbish, no one stop F-16 to get a big wing!

    The F-16 also has fuselage lift.
    The F-18 is also similar
    Now the MiG-29A has less thrust than the Eurofighter and with respect the Rafale also a smaller wing and is heavier due to less advances in materials the MiG-29 is a 1977 design while the Rafale was a 1986 aircraft and just entered service in 2000 almost 17 years after the MiG-29A.

    I admit that 2F own a great fuselage lift than contemporary jetfighters, but don’t drag the F-16 and F-18 into this room, the room is full now.:cool:

    This has made a few differences in terms of STR, the MiG-29C has a 23 deg/s STR and 28-29deg/s ITR at normal combat weight.

    Can you show stuff to prove your data?

    Both the Su-27 and MiG-29 can do the cobra and use it in combat the Eurocanards have not shown they can do it .

    The Burkit also didn’t show that:diablo:

    I can not tell you what ITR and STR the newer Su-35 and MiG-35 have, but i am pretty sure they are competive with respect the Rafale and Eurofighter.

    You have right to believe it, if you don’t anything here will be brought to against you when the real data unveiled.

    Now the F-22 boasts acording to some a 28deg/s STR and i thing this has also a lot to do with its forebody vortices since their symetry will allow better turns and excellent AoA handling because it will keep its nose stable laterally.

    According to the video the F-22 can turn 180° within 5seconds which almost 36° per seconds, no evidence to prove this turn was used by TVC but also none TVC used is unexplainable.

    LERXes can be stabilizing or destabilising laterally and longitudinally at the break of AoA basicly giving either the ability of recover from stall or departure into a spin, the Su-27 has pretty much a really good AoA handling and its LERXes allow it to recover from 120 deg AoA break of AoA making the tailplane pitch control stable.
    This will depend ina great degree how much pitch the LERX produces.

    That Cobra was done in many limited conditions, which almost useless.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2400457
    franc
    Participant

    I will explain you why a triangular canard is less effective with these two tail planes. see these two tailplanes
    If you see the MiG-29 tailplanes they are not triangular but trapezoidal with its center of lift the farthest from the gravity center

    if you make them like the X-36 canards triangular they will get closer to the center of Gravity
    same is with the F-18 tailplanes they are the farthest from the center of gravity by if you make them triangular its center of lift will change and will get closer to the center of gravity.

    The F-22 has no triangular tailplanes
    see

    It is easier to make the tailplane stealthy than a canard
    From the frontal view the F-22 has its tailplanes hiden by the wing and from the lateral view it plansform with the engine nacelles so it is at the same level of its wing to keep planforming and stealthiness

    Let’s see the line-drawing below,
    the distance between red line is about 4 and 2/3 units
    the distance between blue line is about 4 and 1/3 units
    the distance between orange line is about 7 units
    http://i43.tinypic.com/t8wv9w.jpg
    Now we can see the conclusion is that moment arm of long-coupled canards certainly be greater than F-16 very much, whereas the moment arm of F-16 only longer than Rafale which is close-coupled canards 2.4% approximately.
    You also can move the GoL which belong to the own aircraft forward or rearward in a reasonable interval, but this won’t change the primary fact here.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2400781
    franc
    Participant

    A canard delta configuration with unstable stability has less lift than an unstable tailed delta when both canard and tailplane are of the same size due to additional lift the canard center of lift is closer to the center of gravity so it is near to static neutral stability, while the tailed design will have a farther distance or more negative static stability for reducing trim drag because of its position aft of the Center of Gravity.

    😀 You’d better come back shcool to learn basic physics. Foolishly image which position that fulcrum being on unstable layout, unthinkably, that trim force of canards will be less than horizontal tail if they’re same area and same shape.

    However an unstable configuration reduces greatly the drag for a canard wing configuration and of course if the Canard wing aircraft is unstable compared to a stable wing tail aircraft it will have better drag trim

    Also better than unstable layout.

    The Canard down washes the wing killing lift from the main wing and canard deflections will affect it even more.

    This depends on position and posture.

    The Tailplane is downwashed by the wing so it will make a download force on the tailplane helping it to trim the aircraft and reducing the tailplane deflection for trimming;

    the tailplane`s center of lift is farther from the center of gravity due to the fact it has a higher critical mach number and its leading edge is more swept than its wing this will further reduce its deflection for trimming; most canards have the same of less swept than their wings in example the Rafale and Eurofighter .

    Do you know the unstable coefficient of Eurocanards? approxi to .15 in common. What about F-16?

    On the F-22, F-35 and T-50 effectively the wing and tailplane have the same angle of swept on their leading edges due to planforming but they have a better moment arm because they are not triangular in shape as a stealthy canard usually is.

    Nothing proved.

    A stealthy canard also needs to be at the same level of its wing like all the stealthy tailplanes are and not above the wing or below it, for a canard to be the most effective needs to be above the wing so its vortices can re-energize the wing, planforming will affect that too rendering the canard less effective and more like a drag inducing element.

    Only a little, but shouldn’t be below, same level is fine. Besides, the same level tail also is affected by main wing badly.

    By the fact it is unstable, the F-16 needs less tailplane deflection than a regular Mirage F1 or F-4.
    The F-16 has a longer moment arm than a Rafale, while the F-16 has its tail at the end of the rear fuselage, the Rafale`s canards are very close to its wings closer to the center of gravity.
    The F-16 however it is limited by lesser power and a lower TWR, this will explain you why the F-16 is less capable

    No, the power F-16 got is not limited compare to le rafale, its climb rate even higher than rafale a little bit, but to benefit from vortex and down-wash flow leading by canards mixed LERX, even close-coupled layout, le Rafale’s wing gained much more lift from its comparable area, and delta wing’s flap and aileron supply a smaller deflective angle causing less trim drag so that is why either STR or ITR the Rafale performed superior than F-16.
    By the way, a long-coupled canards also has a long moment arm which you wanted if needs to be.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401003
    franc
    Participant

    The delta offered less drag good internal volume but has troubles of bleeding energy by been highly sweep at low speeds.
    A wing has better lift at low speeds if it has less sweep.
    The solution was a canard in the Kfir but this aircraft stiil was not a really good doghfighter it was easily surpassed by the F-15 and F-14 and struggled against the F-5, MiG-23 or F-4.

    Compare with MIG-23 or F-4, the Kfir was a good fighter and no less advantage in air combat, when you facing advantage canards gained in same generation, you always hide behind the next generation a/c.

    The Viggen took STOL as a very important step but Lerxed Harriers surpassed the agility of the canarded AJ-37
    The Solution was relaxed stability why? simply because this made the original basic configuration of the Mirage III have a higher pitch up vertical vector so the Mirage 2000 can turn tighter than ist predecessor the Mirage III.

    Your expression is clearly weak since this point we have debated previously. I had pointed Viggen was a not all-moving canards a/c but Harrier2 was.

    Now having a tail heavy means you have to trim it at vertical level flight if you add a canard the aerodynamic center needs to be a bit closer to the center of gravity so that pitch up force is not making excessive drag by trimming.

    So does the conventional tailed layout.

    The Tailed aircraft achieve less drag simply because the main wing is the largest lifting surface so the main lift is not affect by any wake like in the case of the Canard delta wing.

    The canards also achieve a good effect to main wing while it is up deflected due to stable design.

    The wing does affect the tailplane but this is good because it reduces the relative AoA of the tailplane by doing this you get a down force for trimming.

    “The wing does affect the tailplane but this is good” only when the tail is set lower than main wing or being AoA.

    However in the US they saw they need an additional pitch up force to improve turning so they applied relaxed stability to the F-16.
    In Russia was the same with the Su-27.

    Although with that additional pitch up force the Eurocanards still is overwhelming to both of them

    tailplanes are usually more swept than their wings so they have higher Mach critical numbers than their wings so that also reduces their drag canards are the opposite.

    What about the swept angle is same as main wing like F-22?:p

    However Because the canard is a lifting surface ahead of the center of gravity, it creates a pitch up forces ahead of it, if it is managed gives good agility and low drag at supersonic speeds so they are used with near neutral static stability so they do not create excessive pitch up force.

    Ok let’s see such situation.
    Both tailed layouts and canards layout are unstable designed during transonic or supersonic performance, so the trim surface of both of them are posited at zero which reason I have emphasized repeatedly, then we want each of them obtaining a pitch up force by canards and tail. For tailed layouts they deflect tail downwards which supply a negative lift whereas canards deflect upwards which provide a positive lift additionally.
    Now we see which one be in advantage?

    The canard is suppose to stall first adding safety to reduce pitch up forces, however adds drag.
    Tailplanes to the contrary are behind the center of gravity so they need a slightly farther distance from the center of gravity in order to achieve the same gains in reduction of drag.

    Are you a freshman on aerodynamics? Do you know the longer distance between CoG and trim surface the more stranger trim force that trim surface will provide if they are same area and same shape? For tail plane it does, so does the canards.
    I have no idea what you what to tell us.

    LERXEs also are lifting surfaces ahead of the center of lift and produce vortices without the added wake of a canard, the MiG-29, Su-27 and F-18 have lerxes with apexes well ahead of the forebody near the radome so as you can see the Su-27 and F-16 do not yield nothing to an aircraft with canards.

    To make out why the LERX is setting towards rear more and more showing F-22 and T-50 and same notice why strake was opted behind the canards which showing on Gripen and Euro-typhoon.

    Conclusion if you use deltas is good to use canards, relaxed stability and TVC like in the MiG 1.44 which is ahead of the Eurocanards, but if you are going to use other types of wings they are not as needed.
    And you have the Su-27 and F-22 to prove it

    Do you want to say the diamond or wedged wing is not suit to canards?

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401050
    franc
    Participant

    however the Mirage III was a sound design, so Israel made into a better fighter by just adding canards in the Kfir.
    The americans chose tailed designs with LERXes and relaxed stability in the F-16 and F-18 and the Soviets/Russians followed with the Su-27 and MiG-29 solving exacly the same problems solved by Delta canards.

    Solved what problem??? :confused::confused::confused:

    Dassault went back to design a simple modernized Mirage III with relaxed stability and small strakes, and bigger more complex with canards, these were the Mirage 2000 and 4000.
    The Mirage 4000 failed but the simplier 2000 succeded.

    A very pool-proof/oversimplified analyze like thus no wonder your mistake goes out of hand.
    The Mirage 4000 we say rather it was abandoned because price or cost than any technical failure had appeared.
    The canards is used on Le Rafale that also using LERX doubtlessly proved that effect of canards is irreplaceable.
    Have you ever thought about why the LERX or strake placed aft canards on Eurocnards not like it has been tried to place ahead of canards? 😉

    Now it is possible to make an aircraft with canards and relaxed stability with some stealth treatment, but since the tailed designs have basicly solved their high AoA handling and drag troubles with Relaxed stability and wing design all the current stealth LO fighters have tails why? simply because the main solution was done by making the F-16 unstable and a convetional design present a smoother solution to planforming and performance so you have the tailed F-22, F-35 and T-50.

    You seemed to bave bad memory to remember the lift leading by up deflected tail on unstable a/c will certainly be decreasing gradually till zero accompany with speed approaching to sonic cause CoL moving rearward meanwhile le Rafale’s trim drag leading by down deflected canards is reducing whereas the total lift of Rafale is always higher than F-16 due to comparable wing area.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401074
    franc
    Participant

    A canard works better with neutral stability? why because excessive pitch up force in a way will affects the trim it needed,
    the taiplanes works better at negative static stability since this improve trim.

    See you admitted canards obtained more advantages.

    A canard works better with neutral stability? why because excessive pitch up force in a way will affects the trim it needed,
    the taiplanes works better at negative static stability since this improve trim.

    The speed should be cared more since we are in supersonic period.
    Accompany by speed increasing the lift produced by tailplane deflected upwards will decreasing due to CoL moving rearward.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401584
    franc
    Participant

    How about that?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0&feature=PlayList&p=B9D6083966F9DB95&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=47

    180° turn or you’re gonna say that’s not 180, but 179,99°?

    So they did same although F-22 has more powerful engine and amazing tail which somebody appriciated vey much.:diablo:

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401588
    franc
    Participant

    Delta canards get less trim drag with near neutral static configurations while tailed aircraft need to be more negatively unstable to get similar trim drag gains.

    Make any aircraft excessively tail heavy and you paid the price with trim drag, same is if you do it excessively nose heavy. There is no advantage of Canards once both configurations are unstable.

    But if you want a small fighter a delta is useful it carries lots of fuel and is good for low drag, then canards and relaxed stability are a must, European fighters then settled for Delta canards but Russians and americans have taken the tailed configuration most of the time. the eurocards are high performance small fighters, the Su-27, F-22, T-50 and F-15 are big even the MiG-29 is bigger than the Gripen.

    What do you want to say?
    Despite approaching sonic flight with unstable design, the canards gains no advantage? Who can see why canards couldn’t be big a/c in your explain?

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2401878
    franc
    Participant

    The F-15 does not generate less drag for the following reason, at sea level, the F-15 won`t reach Mach one at military power alone, to reach its max speed of 1.2 will need afterburner, for crusing speed using the Max military power the F-15 will fly in a range of 800km/h, to fly at around 1300km/h will already use afterburner; the F-22 will pass mach 1 without the use of afterburner and the F-22 will lit the afterburner just when is very close to its max speed at sea level.

    None sense, which report told you F-22 can pass Mach1 without AB at see level?
    Being sea level, the speed of both F-22 and F-15 are quite similar.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2402547
    franc
    Participant

    canards do have more drag than any tailplane at the same size and they reduce wing lift so they have a worse D/L ratio, the advantage is since they do generate a positive lift ahead of the wing and CG they can be make relatively smaller than a tailplane , the only advantage of an aircraft with canards if both are stable is less supersonic trim drag.
    This is offset by the tailplanes only if the configuration is unstable.

    Do you have any idea concerning aerodynamics ?
    The affect of reducing wing lift by canards is limited. A designer who is not expert to design an aircraft with canards will bring bigger drag and smaller lift just like a designer who is not good at design a tail-plan layout is designing a tail plane.

    Yes, during stable period, although canards bring an additional lift compare with tail plane in subsonic flight, but accompany with speed approaching transonic and penetrate in supersonic, the CoL moving rearward cause both canards and tail-plan has to deflect downward more, so most designers think there is no benefit would be taken from canards, but now in period of unstable, not only less drag the canards bring to, but also more drag the tail-plan bring to the a/c due to tail drag is 1/3 about total drag of a/c.
    Simply, the smaller anything being tail or bottom, the less drag to entire a/c. No tail vertical or horizontal will be perfect if it is possible.

    Now LERXes produce stronger vortices, why? simple because they are more swept, however canards have the advantage of distributing their impact on slightly more areas of the wing.
    Tailplanes impact in the overall size of the aircraft, so a smaller delta canard aircraft can be make by using canards, for example the Gripen.

    It is real funny, when such extreme swept occur on Viggen’s canards, I still remember somebody taught us it leading to less lift, here the some position replaced by a word called vortex becoming some advantage against canards, This is not tech discussion but glib.
    By the way, the Viggen is considerable big fighter during the period it belong to.

    In the F-22 the use of a tailplane is obvious because tailplanes make less drag and can be relatively speaking being adapted easier to planforming without constraigning so much performance .

    That is the reason the Russians opted too for a conventionl back tail in the T-50 and not a configuration like the X-36.

    Everything is mission driven like before was stated.

    Which proves nothing but F-22 is a more conservative layout.

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2403701
    franc
    Participant

    Try this one:;)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo65qpEdOl8

    Yours is 150° turn

    in reply to: Canards and stealth. . . #2403719
    franc
    Participant

    Oh yes do you admit T/W rate of F-15 at least equal to F-22?do you admit wing load of F-22 at least similar with F-15?
    Could you tell us why F-22 has so much greater turn rate?
    Certainly, then tell me could you show me F-22 change its nose 180° in 5 seconds without using TVC?
    But Rafale can do it even without TVC.

    What you are doing is an over simplification of thrust vectoring, aircraft even with thrust vectoring need to obey the rules of aerodynamics, the thrust vectoring inputs are brief, for most of the time the aerodynamic controls are acting in the aircraft.
    The F-22 is no F-15, first its drag is minimal, this multiplies its thrust and lift. and even at the same TWR and wing loading the F-15 will be drag burdened while the F-22 won`t, the F-22 in that fact has more lift and thrust available.
    Second in order to do the Cobra the F-22 needs relaxed stability, you might think it is just a matter of installing 2D TVC and that is it, however it is not, any aircraft trying to do the cobra needs to be longitudinally relaxed or unstable.
    The tailplanes are very important to do the Cobra since they become nose down pitchers as the aircraft switches from tail heavy to nose heavy.

    Oh dear, don’t change the point here, so caould you tell me even both of them without TVC, and both of them get similar wing load and T/W ratio, which one will be minimal its drag and maximal lift? Canards or LERX? And in what condition & situation?

    I am not planning to rebut some of your claim here, I’d rather agree the F-22 doing anything independent with TVC, but I didn’t see you posted anything explain what advantage would be given by LERX in combat flight except AoA >40° or you are flying over M3.

Viewing 15 posts - 106 through 120 (of 509 total)