Drag is a force working against lift and thrust you can not expect the F-15 to have less drag than the F-22, the F-22 is not a christmass tree in terms of drag like the F-15 is, besides the F-15 has no leading edge flaps.
Oh yes do you admit T/W rate of F-15 at least equal to F-22?do you admit wing load of F-22 at least similar with F-15?
Could you tell us why F-22 has so much greater turn rate?
Plus the F-22 has relaxed stability, the F-15 is stable longitudinally.
Certainly, then tell me could you show me F-22 change its nose 180° in 5 seconds without using TVC?
But Rafale can do it even without TVC.
IMO, the F-22 is also a complement to the F-35.
I did not contradict my self you are using excuses to further a dead cause.
If the Viggen does not win you say it is stable, i proved you the F-15 is stable too you say it has more thrust then you say is not fair my point was everything is thrust and lift not the canard or tailplane differences what gives the edge.
Oh? Everything is thrust and lift? Then tell me why the F-22 its wing load and T/W rate is not greater than F-15 but get much much higher turn rate than F-15? No related to TVC?
Besides, when and where I mentioned Viggen was a stable a/c or not?
What I point was if you compare canards and tail plan layouts, you should put them under same condition.
The very difference between Viggen and F-15 is that Viggen’s canards is not all-moving surface whereas that tail-plan on F-15 is all-moving. I never ever said stable or unstable either Viggen or F-15!
the Cobra can be used in combat, but if is not used properly it s a drawback and disadvantage rather than an advantage, a Su-27 can use the cobra against a Eurofighter, well used offsets the advantage of the enemy aircraft, use it in the wrong way it will kill you.
See, what are you going to say just is an agreement with I posted: Cobra is a maneuver but maneuver not merely is Cobra.
The Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen of course are good fighters and in some ways are better than early MiG-29s and Su-27s, latest generations are better on par the with Eurofighter like the Su-37 or MiG-29M to put and example.
Just remember the regular old MiG-29A and MiG-29Cs had STR of 23-22deg/s depending in the variant and ITR of 28deg/s, the newer MiG-29M had relexed stability and the MiG-35 upgraded engines so you can expect higher ITR and STR besides TVC if needed.
By turning the nose the Su-27A and MiG-29A are not behind and the Eurofighter and Rafale have higher instantaneous turn rate but not very high STR more ore less on par with a Su-27B and MiG-29C, but the pointing of the nose is not inferior in the Russian fighters and the Cobra is an example.
All Eurocanards own the >30°/s ITR on average which are unstable compare to all unstable tail-plane MiG-29 23°/s, F-16 26°/s, Su-27 28°/s, F-18 22°/s so get 24.75°/s on average ITR,
For STR, all Eurocanards own the STR significantly above 20°/s, but all tail plane all below 20°/s despite F-16 22°/s.
Both of Eurocanards are capable to do supersonic fly without afterburner, but none of unstable tail-plane can do. This is what I pointed, Canards gets greater advantage on trim force, esp. the more speed the more advantage.
What you can not believe is the F-22 has good aerodynamics, it does, what happens most people think everything is related to its TVC, but it is not, the F-22 must have good turn rates simple because of its thrust to weight ratio and wing area.
Really??
If no TVC, which advantage F-22 gets compare to F-15 which even is a stable a/c.? wing load? or T/W rate? Dare to list? I bet you not!
Add TVC and the F-22 can do more than that in fact the F-22 has done the cobra as a regular air show routine, show me videos of any eurocanard doing it
The only thing I do enough to against you will be to copy your words below:
a Su-27 can use the cobra against a Eurofighter, well used offsets the advantage of the enemy aircraft, use it in the wrong way it will kill you.
You are misunderstanding facts, first the Kfir has a turn rate like this, ITS of 18deg/s, STR of 9.6 deg/s, both the F-16 and F-15 have better sustained and Instantaneous turn rates even the Harrier AV-8B has better ITR and STR
The same will happen with the Viggen it is less capable than even the F-15 and Harrier and much less capable than even the MiG-29.
It is not that delta canards have high ITRs but that they do not have good STR because they bleed energy fast, that is the reason they use canards and relaxed stability to increase sustained turn rates.
The F-15 is not an unstable aircraft niether the Harrier, only the F-16, Gripen, Eurofighter, MiG-29M, Su-27 and J-10 to put some examples The first truely unstable fighter aircraft in the world was the F-16 by the way, the F-15 it was not.
But still the F-15 will beat the Viggen in dogfights and the Tomcat very likely was either as good or better
In these two posts, you made same mistake:
1)Viggen and F-15 are not same generation fighter according to common opinion. Notice the canards on Viggen is not all-moving surface but tail-plane on F-15 is completely all moving, ergo this is unfair firstly
2)When you make a comparison, you must put all objects under same condition. Here F-15 got much much powerful engine so that it is almost double T/W rate than Viggen. This is your double standard secondly.
Remember you also said:
If you read aircraft history you will know that each generation has increased thrust and thrust to weight ratio.
However deltas with canards have less supersonic trim and this allows for more compact designs since you can pack more lift in a given design because the control surface is ahead of the center of gravity and with relaxed agility well that will make for good fighters
You be force to admit this seemingly!
What the americans did in the F-22 is pack two very powerful engines and give it a huge wing in a very aerodynamicaly clean airframe.
This has given them the ability to give it really high ITR and STR, now TVC is important but its agility is not 100% product of TVC.
Really? So what do agility do? What is different between agility and maneuverability?
The F-22 and Su-30MKI once they use TVC they slow down, they do Cobras or Kulbits or BElls but the name for the Cobra is in reality dynamic disaceleration what the Cobra is doing to a Su-27 is slow it down, an F-15 can even shot down an unexperienced Su-30MKI pilot just by the way it sinks in the air once its uses supermaneouvrabity.
Yoohoo, in this same page we saw exactly contradictory post here:
The Cobra has good value in a fighter like the Su-27 or MiG-29, it does allow it to fight a fighter with higher instantaneous turn rate like a Eurofighter, but since modern Eurofighters have IRIS-T or ASRAAM missiles any superiority will be counterbalance.
However the F-22 has a turn rate of 28 deg/s and it is not because of TVC it is because it has excess power it can even supercruise at military power, consider then if it won`t have an excellent turn rate just without TVC,
you take like a bible that canards are the only element to make a fighter agile but it is not it is simple lift and thrust.
If the F-22 uses TVC it will do bells, cobras, kulbits, etc etc but its turn rate is the result of pure thrust and lift
What makes you so incoherent?
1st step: same wing area, same wing shape and same fuselage, but only difference is canards and tail-plan.
you pick two teams of aircraft with completely far away T/W rate even neglect other differences.
2nd step: close T/W rate and both all-moving trim surface.
you avoid behind Cobra.
3rd step: Cobra ≠ combat ability.
you run turn rate comparison. That’s fine, I tell you UNDER SAME CONDITION INCLUDING PROFILE, Eurocanards run significant higher turn rate than F-16 or Su-27 no matter instantaneous or sustained. Then you go to agility.
4th step: agility ≠ maneuverability
Before you write, you’d better know agility means capability of nose direction changing, you turn or climb also changing your nose direction but if you want to changing faster, you have to use two methods, one is correct layout normal to canards, and you want faster much more higher, you must get TVC.
5th step: put the TVC away
If not being AoA bigger than 45°, canard run absolute advantage including trim drag, Cl coefficient and speed flexion within any maneuver/flight situation, simply because it is a moving deflective surface rather than LERX merely is a high swept wing.
It is not the fact they have canards or tailplanes but the amount of lift and thrust what matters.
Also is not that canards can not be used for stealth they can be used but performance losses and trade offs must not be worthed since the F-22 and T-50 both use tailplanes and the same is for the F-35.
O, yeah? Could you explain why that ITR of canards generally higher than normal layouts without TVC?
And you have been not giving any reasoning to tell me why canards would be worth to stealth?
All of Eurocanards own a better instantaneous turn rate than nornmal layout such as Su-27 and F-15.
Pay attension, Cobra is a maneuver, but maneuver not merely is Cobra.
LERxes are not delta wings are compound wings, one section is highly sweep, you can call it delta if you want but the main wing has a moderate sweep.
The Leading Edge of LERX is highly sharp, with this leading edge highly swept, it becomes side edge alike, but this does not change basic point.
Some LERX could be called compound wing just like F-18C/D’s, but this also does not change F-5A/B also fitted with Leading Edge Rooting Extension.
Now if you want to understand canards you have to understand foreplanes do move and this will affect the wing, remember the wing is behind the canard and any flextion of the canard will affect it.
That is what wing needed.:cool:
However, the surfaces produce upwash and downwash on each other so that the effective lift curve slope is changed. Unless the canard and wing are very close together, the major effect is that of the canard on the wing. The canard produces downwash on the inner part of the wing and upwash outboard of the canard tip vortices. The net effect, though, is a reduction in wing lift which can be estimated roughly by the following formula which is based on the Hayes Reverse Flow Theorem (see Ref. 3):
source
http://174.120.241.105/appliedaero/configuration/canardstability.html
No point.
The canards also produce upwash and downwash flow to the wing.
Now see why canards are more difficult to adapt to stealth
The situation is less favorable for canard designs. Although small canards of high aspect ratio produce least drag, large canards of small aspect ratio achieve the highest CLmax. Moreover, the sensitivity of CLmax and drag to canard aspect ratio leads to greater compromises in each of these areas than would be required for an aft-tail design.
http://aero.stanford.edu/Reports/MultOp/multop.html
The Black words didn’t match what you want to directed: “why canards are more difficult to adapt to stealth“.
Triangular canards such as the ones on the X-36 is a design compromise; the Rafale, J-10, Lavi, Su-33, Su-35, Su-37, Eurofighter, Gripen, Su-34 all have high aspect canards, the Viggen is the exception with a large canard of low aspect ratio, guess what effect a triangular canard will have since a canard to be effective needs to have a relation between its center of lift and the center of gravity of the aircraft.
Both canards and Horizontal tailplan trimming the CL not only canards, what we research here is what is better.
All of above you posted didn’t get any further meaningful point, sorry.
I have posted some advantage of Canards before but nobody were able to rebut them.
Please think before write.
Please do not misunderstand me, canards are okay they do improve wing flow and AoA behavior, but the Mirage III for example has a delta wing, this was improved with a canard in the Kfir, the delta wing has the disadvantage of being easy to stall at relatively low AoA, the canard improve the low pressure flow above the delta wing, making it to have better AoA handling.
Regrettably you are wrong again. Basically the LERX Is a delta wing with large swept angle, no matter what’s visual angle you’re going to look from, aspect radio or cross section.
Since canards in modern jet fighters are swept and trapezoidal in shape, making them triangular to reduce RCS by aligning them with the wing, they loose some aerodynamic properties deemed necesary.
Loosing what’s kind of aerodynamic properties???:confused:
Now some will say that the canard does not affect negatively but it does move the center of lift sometimes in an adverse way and creates flutter.
Canards does nothing to do with moving of CoL, don’t make mistake like this any more.
The Su-35 has also tailplanes like the Su-33 and the Su-47 has too
Let me feed you back,
for promoting maneuver, we could see tail plane or tailless plane added with canards, but when did you see a realistic tailless plane added with horizontal tail if it original is a tailless?
the MiG-1.44 has a very innovative control surface between the tailbooms and the fuselage that basicly work like tailplanes, their configurations are more complex than the Eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen even the ventral fins in the MiG-1.44 were hinged, what i can tell you is if you look at the F-15 and F-22 their aerodynamics are quit similar with trapezoidal tailplanes
For F-22 and F-15, some one has told you before, for maneuver most to do with F-22 is TVC compare with F-15.
As for 1.44, only one question: how do you define a canards layout?
remember the only pure canard-wing tailess aircraft are fighters with delta wings.
What if not delta wing?
The fact the canard designs are more different than the tailed designs between the stealthy aircraft and the conventional proof the F-22 retains an aerodynamic configuration more suited for air combat than the designs with canards
Please prove it with argumentation.
I guess most people think having canards has to be better than tail planes just because they look more futuristic and up to a degree more exotic and modern than regular tailplanes.
Wrong, the first plane ever flew by mankind was a canards layout. Nobody here think canards will take advantage just because it is more futuristic or exotic. Perhaps you think so then put your idea on others brain.
Also fighters like the Mirage III and Su-27 that were highly improved with canards have given the idea of performace improvers to canards and the idea that regular back tails and LERXes can not do the same.
Before i thought in that way, now i guess i do not favour niether configuration in terms of aerodynamic performance.
true some aircraft like the Su-27K aka Su-33 improved greatly after getting canards and the Su-35 with canards was more agile and nimble than the original Su-27B, most people forget the disadvantages of canards too.
10 pages gone but I still didn’t see anyone bring out any evidence to prove what disadvantage of canards has been forgotten, but I saw you admitted that Su-35 fitted with canards was more agile and nimble than original Su-27, also no need moi point out that MFI 1.44 designed as Canards to overwhelming the layout Fulcrum and Flanker used on aerodynamics.
I guess in a fighter like the F-22 tailplanes were deemed less risky technologically speaking than the V tail YF-23 and the very early configurations of the YF-22 with canards were simply not even been built due to the complexities of building such aircraft.
I could not see any risk of canards to be aircraft layout, too many airplane in history used canards as designation not even jet but also propeller.
There is either a double-standard somebody glade to use
When they want something is deemed good, they say it advanced, when they want sth is deemed bad, then regardless how advanced it is they say it is risky!:D
Same is with the YF-35 and X-36 aircraft, canards were considered too complex and relatively unwanted.
:diablo: Compare to the TVC at that time, canards was much less risky……
But up to now canards are not being used in stealth aircraft that have been built.
By the exception of the B-2, X-32 and F-117 all the current stealth aircraft feature tailplanes and none has ever used canards
By the exception of the B-2, X-32 and F-117, all of them are no-tailplan aircraft!:dev2:
The movable LERX’s effect is rather a canards than LERX we usually said.
Please summarize what characters LERX should has.
At airshows the F-22 display team announce the F119s produce 37000lb each in peace time, and Bill Sweetman has estimated they generated 39-40klb.
Cheers.
This is true or not depends on what methods they used to estimate:p
The difference is not as great, both are third generation aircraft, the difference in turn rate is substantial of around 2.6deg/s at Mach 0.6, the MiG-23 will be similar with 14.1deg/s sustained turn at 780km/h and 16.7 deg/s instantaneous, however see the early Harrier variants could not pull more than 15 deg/s instantaneous but once LERXes were added it pulled 20deg/s instantaneosu and 17-18 deg/s sustained much superior to the Viggen which shows you using tailplanes is as good as Canards and in stealth tailplanes are easier to adapt to planforming.
See that the Kfir wont go beyond 10deg/s sustained and 18 deg/s instantaneous turn rates so canards are not the inherently superior to tailplanes
All of tail plane inferior more than canards in terms of your list, but Harrier is something different, which set engine coincided with CoG making LERX more lift during turn and tail surface more trim free.
If that is right then the Viggen is indeed more agile than the F-4 and MiG-23 since the F-4 will have a turn rate of 14.5 deg/s at the same height but at higher speed at 0.9 Mach at 0.6 will have around 13 deg/s, then your assesment is right
Note the Viggen assesment does not mention if it is instantaneous or sustained turn rate
So what you point also means F-4 take a large turn radius than Viggen.