I don’t have any policemen, crooked or otherwise, but it is nice of you to lift your nose out of the Daily Mail for a few moments…

Were you there? Do you have any information that has not been reported in the court? Is my input any more cynical than those who welcome the death of a possible nasty piece of work with so much left unanswered?

And since you ask I have had a police weapon pointed at me – it lasted maybe three seconds (or several hours as I recall) and I drain blood whenever I think of what could have happened if I hadn’t noticed the officer coming in and put my hands up immediately, since he insisted afterwards that he had shouted a warning before entering and was quite prepared to fire because of the manner of his briefing – even though no one present heard him or even knew there were police on the site. (Without wanting to go into too much detail we were checking out a derelict property with a view to either renovate or demolish, with the owner present, and someone thought we were stashing drugs or stolen goods there so reported us)
I am well aware that the majority of police armed interventions end in the best possible way, yet there is this back history of failures that does not give great confidence.
I am not trying to blacken the characters of the police since – if you examine the facts as presented to the court – they did a fairly good job of that themselves. The fact that no one knew what had happened to the gun (V53 insisting that it was in Duggans hand and giving an excellent description, others saying that he had shot at them, no one witnessing it being thrown away) leaves speculation as to how it arrived where it was found as the only option – and with that comes the possibility that it was planted. Had they (speculatively) planted it in his hand then it wouldn’t be much of an issue to play with, but they didn’t so it is.

Many years ago there was an occurrence of kids playing ‘cowboys’ or something where armed police were alerted to a gun battle – they apparently came in with guns nearly blazing to a group of boys with cap pistols and stick shouting bang. I was shocked on hearing this from a former workmate – his son was one of those involved and apparently my friend was on the receiving end of a copper telling him off for letting his son play with a stick. Innocents getting let off with a warning because the police were embarrassed?
Then there are all those other occasions where there have been screw ups and innocents have been killed or injured – read about the Stephen Waldorf case and see where the armed police went way over the top, fortunately without killing an innocent man.

Still, since Duggan has been painted as the devils right hand man by the police – now there is a man whose character has been blackened, if you are looking for one; as I have pointed out he was not arrested for any of the things he had been accused of doing, maybe he did them and maybe he didn’t, but he won’t be getting his day in court, will he – I’m sure you are happy that an event like this can only happen to the right sort, and will only happen to that criminal sort, aren’t you.

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it’s possible that they get things wrong occasionally.

Everyone gets things wrong occasionally, me, you, the media, the police.

Don’t answer a question with a question; I’m not the one refusing to accept the jury’s verdict, so my thoughts are as irrelevant as yours. A majority out of 10 people, who were there, and heard all of the evidence, have given a verdict, which you are hell-bent on refusing to acknowledge.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but this is a discussion forum. The idea is that someone posts something and it gets discussed. Maybe.
These things under discussion won’t be things that directly involve us, usually. We might have an interest in it or feel strongly enough to share the subject to either show what is/has happened or comment upon it. It is, all in all, a fairly simple concept.

I was interested in this story since there are inconsistencies, aired and acknowledged in court, which allow doubt to seep into the inquiring mind. As you said, there was a majority verdict – but two of that jury were not convinced enough to agree with their peers: do you imagine that the other jurors shouted them down after declaring that what they disagreed with didn’t matter since the guy deserved to die? The chances are that they talked it through; maybe the numbers changed one way or another, but at the end of the day two of the twelve did not agree with the rest.
On this forum the majority view is that he had a gun and therefore he deserved to die. There seem to have been little discussion about the fact that the gun ended up being removed from the scene without anybody noticing, nor about the fact that having been removed from the scene the police marksman was still able to give an accurate description, nor about the fact that the police on the scene were all in one room to write up their reports afterwards, even then making the claim that he had shot at them despite the fact that he did not have the gun in his hand.

Yet Duggan, apparently, reached into his pocket (where police were entitled to think he might be carrying the gun they were told he’d acquired) to get a mobile phone, instead of putting up his hands. Never wondered why? Was it to warn his little friends that he wouldn’t be able to come and play Cowboys and Indians, after all?

No, I never wondered why, but that might be because the reports I read said that he apparently had his hand tucked in close to his stomach rather than in his pocket, and moved it in such a way as to give the impression that he had a gun and was about to bring it up in a threatening manner. And it had a mobile phone in it, which the witness in the block of flats could see was bright and shiny and said it was a mobile phone and that – in his opinion – Duggan was surrendering. Yes, this witness was further away from the scene than the police present but he still stated what he saw in court – did that make any difference to some of the jury’s decision, maybe?

Or maybe a policeman sick with the realisation of what could have happened (even policemen have feelings, strange as it might seem,) so gave vent? “Guns nearly blazing” Oh, please, you weren’t there, so how do you know that?

Maybe a copper with reflective heart, yes, but to take his frustration out on a parent is not very professional or wise: kids play, you can’t stop that. I doubt he was one of the armed police either; they don’t work like that.
The guns nearly blazing is something I was told by my colleague – maybe that was what the cop told him.

You do love the emotive claptrap, and running off at the mouth with cheap accusations, don’t you? Unfortunately for you, I’m not happy or unhappy, since the event has nothing to do with me, and, unlike some, I can resist the urge to stick my nose into an affair about which I know nothing.

See the bit where I describe a forum, above.
Unfortunately the police make snap decisions and it does not always end up with the best result. On this occasion the majority here believe it ended with the right result without comprehending that a marksman who can make a mistake about a mobile phone, identify a gun that isn’t there and claim that the target came out firing could just as easily make a mistake and shoot an innocent by making the wrong snap decision. The thing on the side of the police is that no armed officer has been punished for shooting anybody.

The video was taken after the shooting, and if its anything like my phone doesn’t have much of a zoom facility. In fact I can see clearer with my eyes than with the screen.
Apparently he was 100 yards away, which is not that great a distance but might preclude hearing any orders from the police or shouting/whatever from Duggan.

Remember not so long ago, when an elderly Judge had to ask, “Who were THE BEETLES?”

[PEDANTIC]Well, its either a member of the Coleoptera order of insects or its an old Volkswagen…[/PEDANTIC]

Or did you mean Beatles?;o)

It’s blatantly obvious Chas, as you have never been a Copper, that you have little idea.

Oh, good grief. How patronising.

So…you’ve never been a murderer, so you are not allowed to comment on threads about capital punishment? Never been in the air force or a pilot so not allowed to comment on threads about aeroplanes, never been a god so can’t post on religious threads, or never been an executioner so not allowed to comment on death penalty threads?

How about, rather than talking down to Charlie, try putting the reason why its blatantly obvious to you (a former copper) so that all the other non ex-coppers can see why you feel that way. This is a forum, and since posting is not restricted to professional knowledge about a subject only (whereby it would be very boring, no matter how many people might wish for that to be the rule) it should not be assumed that your knowledge is shared by all who read your threads but that you need to explain yourself.

I’ve recently been reading about hanging, drawn and quartering and the use of the Guillotine as a means of capital punishment. Guess you lot would would be demanding one or the other to be reinstated…

Bugg£r.
I shouldn’t have taken so long researching and putting in detail and fetching the kids and finished my thread instead…

I heard a stand-up the other day suggest that ‘Celebrity’ Big Brother on Channel 5 was a programme where people came out less famous than they went in.

The Now Show on Radio 4, by any chance…?

“Celebrity” is probably the word most likely to cause me varying degrees of apoplexy when heard or read. The very word signalling the arrival of some nonentity to the TV screen has me reaching for the off switch.

Yes. There is a new and crassly different definition of the word to that which I see in my dictionary.
That and ‘reality’ when used in an entertainment setting..

But come on – should the uncelebrity Bieber be deported from America back to Canada?

Not if it was for health reasons. Apparently.

Interesting about distractions – we are not allowed to use mobile phones whilst driving, yet the police can and do use their radios when driving. But most of us can drive without crashing into things because of the kids, or things on the radio, whatever. My youngest travels in her child seat and is subjected to cold air if I open my window, she can’t change the temperature by herself, and if her brother breaks wind next to her she is stuck with it (whereas I can open a window…). If I smoked she would be subjected to the smoke without any say in the matter, and even if she did complain whats to say I’d take notice of a whining child anyway?

I agree that it is, as it appears now, unworkable.