snafuI do not know what happens to the bulls on completion of the run but, all in all, it seems like great fun.
They are running to the bull ring. There they fight to their death, singularly, against one man, and his assistants, and their spears.
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All in all it is great fun, unless you are a bull in which case you are dead.
I’d like to see the ‘bleeding hearts’ make a loud and impassioned noise about the illegal trade in ivory, tiger parts and rhino horn. How much longer will we enjoy the sights and sounds of wild tigers, elephants and rhinos ? These are the serious issues in wild animal conservation.
Why not try making a noise yourself? Push the boat out and complain, yell, start a thread, email an ambassador, write to your MP…
snafuMaybe they are, but in such circumstances I always ask myself ‘why would they?’
What possible advantage could Israel gain by deliberately targeting innocents?
Who knows, but those boys were targeted; the site was, apparently, utterly devoid of anything that might be considered a target so maybe the Israeli’s were using them as an exercise?
The same is true for Israel deliberately targeting a hospital but here we are discussing it because it definitely happened; or did it? If you were a reporter could you tell the difference between an Israeli shell landing on the hospital roof and a Hamas shell (or a rocket)? Could you tell the difference between an Israeli shell and ten kilograms of high-explosive? Because the hospital is in the Gaza Strip any shell that lands on it HAS to be an Israeli shell, doesn’t it.
Regev queried because another report by the same reporter had indicated that, at a different hospital, he had heard nearby outgoing shells – the query was whether this was the same hospital or the same event. The hospital that was being shelled was at 3am and the reporter could apparently see the shells coming in from the sea.
There is little point in making stuff up in a war zone – there is way too much going on which is genuine for you to spare the time to create fiction, and unless you are really good at it you are going to get called out on something you cannot defend. On this occasion Regev was flustered, he was stuttering and repeating previous answers; he looked thoroughly lost and I could see that he was having difficulty countering what he was being asked.
Robert Fisk anyone, for starters?
I believe that Fisk has suffered at the hands of both sides over the years, but only one side decided to make that intervention personal.
snafuIn a different field…
On Wednesday, Israel shelled children playing on a beach, killing four.
I have just watched (on a video, in an interview where C4’s Jon Snow wiped the floor with him) the Israeli governments spokesperson, Mark Regev, claim that this was a tragedy but that the Israeli military does not target civilians or children. Ok, I am sure that Hamas would claim the same as well, if they were interviewed (although I doubt they would, really).
He claimed that Israel’s military has sophisticated targeting hardware, it can pick out precisely where rockets are being fired from. Yet the Israeli’s are firing at children on a beach. They also fired shells at a hospital where there was no rockets being fired from – Jon Snow mentioned that their reporter (Jonathan Miller) was interviewing a doctor when shells came in and that there had been no firing in the time that he had been there; Regev denied that they would fire at a hospital, that the reporter was confusing the situation.
Neither side holds up to scrutiny when it comes down to it – I am fully aware of how many rockets Hamas have fired and where they have landed. But Israel has the technological advantage yet appears to being using it to target innocents, whilst claiming to be able to pinpoint launchers and surgically remove them.
I guess no one will admit to having a regard for Hamas, but with their ‘precise’ targeting do you have any sympathy with Israel?
snafuSuspect No.1-Russia has history with doing this –
Russia fighters shot down a couple of South Korean airliners 30+ years ago. Not quite the same.
Suspect No.2 – Ukraine forces – On purpose to drag Nato into the conflict same as the shooting down SU-25 accusing Russia again,
Possibly, but the quickly deleted tweet (or whatever it was) from the head rebel claiming they’d downed another transport at about the same time the airliner was shot down is a pretty big pointer towards:
No.3 – The Separatists to drag Russia into the conflict as they appear to be losing ground to the Ukraine regular forces.
I seriously doubt the rebels would be able to convince Russia to do any more than they have already done, but stranger things have happened. Yet their claim not to have anything but portable SAMs is diluted by the above, removed, admission tweet and the Buk mobile SAM systems they captured as witnessed by an Associated Press reporter. But if a bunch of farm boys (or whatever) are unable to operate such technology then that points the finger at undercover Russian troops.
In addition, the hacked phone calls (as yet unconfirmed) between Russian agents and rebel leaders about the shooting down could be another smoking gun. Putin trying to pass at least some blame on to Ukraine by saying they should take some responsibility could be paving the way for some sort of admission of guilt (or responsibility), after the guff about his own plane being near the Malaysian airliner over Poland so maybe he was actually the target…
snafuBut they would be worthless, with no manufacturers guarantee backing them…
snafuHi All,
Snafu I found this on Wiki – Russia’s first downing of civilian aircraft was in 1940.
Sorry – what I meant was more that this was much more impersonal than a fighter shooting down an airliner; in that sense it is just not the same. (Not forgetting all those other non combat aircraft – cargo flights, trainers and the like – shot down on the Berlin run in the early cold war.) It is not really like those Rhodesian airliners shot down towards the end of the Rhodesian conflict, since they would have known that they were regarded as targets.
Anyone want to start an historical list of civilian aircraft that have been shot down? Would make for interesting reading…
snafuThe boys were hit; whether they were deliberately targeted is debatable.
You believe they were the target of un-aimed artillery? You think the shell-fire was accidentally random?
An exercise? An exercise in what; turning the whole world’s opinion against Israel??? You’ll have to explain the logic of that one to me because it makes no sense whatsoever as a deliberate act; the only way it makes any sense is in the minds of those who are determined to make Israel the ‘bad guys’ for targeting innocents.
To be honest it was a tongue in cheek statement, since the reports from the witnessing media played upon the fact that there was nothing else there – just a beach with some children playing football, a scene that sounded to me like a possible opportunity to calibrate the gun sights.
The truth is that it was probably just an accident; collateral damage.
Have you not read the reports?
And while we are in search of ‘the truth’ how do we know there was not a legitimate target on the beach, how do we know these boys were just playing football? Says who? Their parents? Hamas?
For some reason the worlds collective media just so happened to be closeted in hotels close by…
TRANSCRIPT
AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday, an Israeli gunboat shelled a beach, killing four boys who were playing there. The boys were all between the ages of nine and 11 and from the same extended family. Seven other adults and children were wounded in the strike. The scene was witnessed by a number of international journalists, including France 24 correspondent Gallagher Fenwick.
GALLAGHER FENWICK: We witnessed the incident. The first strike occurred, and we went out onto our balcony. You have to understand that this happened right in front of the hotels on the Gaza beachfront where most of the international media are staying, so there were very many witnesses of this incident. As I mentioned, there was a first very loud strike that hit a structure that is right on the Gaza port. So, many people looking out onto there. And after that first strike happened, we saw four very young children running away from the point of impact on a completely empty beach, so very clearly visible from a distance. And that’s why—that’s when, excuse me, there was a second strike that obviously hit the other children, so leaving four children dead on that beach—a very shocking incident given that, again, these children were clearly simply playing around and were very, very clearly visible from a distance.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/17/horror_on_gaza_beach_new_york
Don’t you think that had there been anything like a missile launcher close by the press would have been slavering all over it like you lot around a UKIP manifesto?
I don’t know the truth of the matter but I doubt anybody would hold their hands up and say ‘it is a fair cop’, Israel killed the right people. So who do you believe in such circumstances?
I believe the journalists reports because a) they witnessed the event, and b) there were too many of them who saw what happened to bring any bias to bear.
In the media war there is every point in ‘making stuff up’; Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets into Israeli civilian areas, not exactly ‘targeting’ civilians, but clearly not able to guarantee that they are not targeting civilians (unless the rockets are not fired).
You can spend a few hours making stuff up only to find that you have wasted time and, since no one else can corroborate the story, it gets spiked – unless it is really sensational in which case you get herograms from your bosses and threats from the protagonists, who investigate your claims and find nothing in them then plaster their counter-claims all over the place, then your bosses look into your claims and, when they find out you made them up, drop you and leave you with such a bad reputation that no one trusts you, no one will employ you again.
Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets into Israel, yes. They have killed, to date, in this particular conflict, one Israeli. Their rockets (the ones that get past the anti missile defence grid) are just not accurate enough to target particular buildings, let alone individuals.
Israel has fired many hundreds of shells into The Lebanon (why is it The Lebanon?) and killed countless people: that is the point, isn’t it? They can fire and kill at will – they have the technology to pin point their targets accurately. And that accuracy is underlined by the fact that one of their shells landed on a group of kids on an empty beach playing football, witnessed by the worlds press from the safety of their hotels.
The point is perception; there maybe lots of genuine stuff going on but the important thing (for either side) is to make sure the world’s media reports what you want the world to hear.
So…those kids…were..actually there…for the press…to witness…being killed? Hamas and the Israeli navy had this little arrangement, a tableau to be played out for the journalists?
Crazy.
Just crazy.
‘Israeli shells’ landing on a hospital during a news interview with a doctor makes an irresistible story! You can’t see artillery shells coming (you may be able to see something, like a ship, that is firing) and you can’t tell where exploding shells came from (or even be sure that explosions are ‘shells’) but two and two MUST equal four, right?
Just saying what they said. But Regev was not unaware of the incident – he was trying to redirect his answers to the other hospital where there had been outgoing firing and therefore a legitimate target – but he was floundering magnificently.
As I commented earlier media reporting in the Middle East conflict is rarely objective, so the accuracy of any reports should be taken lightly.
Yes, Charlie, you did.
But an incident like the children on the beach happening in front of many reporters like it did… Do you really think they are going to ignore all the military hardware laying about on the sand?
And, strangely, the hospital that was being fired at…nobody said it was hit (gone back and re-watched the video) just that a designated and recognised hospital was fired at, without reason. Surely it would be the duty of a lying reporter to write that hundreds were killed – no, murdered, by those incoming Israeli shells?
Charlie, the story is about the fact that Israel can fire with pin-point accuracy; the tragedy is that only when they want to do they do so.
snafuIt appears only to apply to Kalashnikov built AKs.
Sorry to butt in on what appears to be a private argument…but my understanding is that if any money – royalties under licence or whatever they call them now – goes back to Kalashnikov then then that would count in this matter.
snafuBut no helmet…? Surely that would be breaking the law.
Watched one of our local ‘beat’ coppers stuffing his face during a pie (apple) eating contest yesterday; he came second to a local padre (denomination unknown) who smeared said pie all round his face. Went out for a ‘jog’ this morning (more of a fast walk quickly descending to a saunter, don’t tell the wife) and saw him and a colleague cycling down the road with him complaining to his buddy ‘she’ (wife, girlfriend?) was forcing him on a diet…
snafu…horse hocky…
Do you mean polo?
I had to tell him it was just water in the jet exhaust and the reason there were more of them in the sky was because our local airport was now an international not just a regional airport. Our local population has risen by about 40% in the last 15 years. to over 100k. Also there were at least 3 other small airfields that are big enough for a twin-jet Boeing or Airbus liner that have been built in the region, to handle all the fly-in/fly-out workers at the new oilsands plants.
But that is what they want you to believe…!
snafuAmazing that this Forum is ahead of IMDB in updating Jim’s biography!
Was updated when I looked at around 17.00.
snafuSnaff, Geoff stated the passenger had no helmet, OFFENCE Rider/No VEL or Insurance meaning he could not be allowed to ride his machine home, So the Copper could ride it to the Pound, after booking the rider and pillion passenger.
Sorry, the cop rides it WITHOUT A HELMET? That was my point.
for Coppers being fat…
Nope, not me complaining about him being fat. He is tall and slim-ish. It just amused me that one day he is ramming apple pie into his mouth, the next he is cycling along complaining about being put on a diet.
snafuThe ‘Arabs’ wield sticks as play guns? What would that look like through binoculars from an Israeli patrol-boat?
Binoculars? Hardly the ‘sophisticated’ targeting system’s sights…
But lets get this bit right: a group of kids, with sticks, on a beach, chasing each other around like kids do? Who points a gun at kids anyway?
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Oh yeah. Sorry…
Yes, the Israelis have sophisticated targeting systems; they can make their shells / bombs / rockets land pretty-much where they want to, but they are still operated by fallible human beings who sometimes see what they want to see or what they are expecting to see.
Children look different to adults; in the same way that you can distinguish between male and female pedestrians at a distance, for example, even without anything to give you their size you can distinguish between children closer to you and adults further away, even taking compression into account.
Of course, we know the boys were playing football right?
They could have been playing cricket, hockey, beach volleyball… Does it matter?
snafuYou said ‘horse hocky’ – that is near as damnit horse hockey, which is a good description of polo.;o)
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snafuBeen busy recently, but the kids were watching some Hobbit film and I sat down with them to while away a few hours…
When I woke up I found it was The Desolation of Smaug – as dull and boring a film that I could hope for to help send me to sleep when I obviously needed it.
Can’t help you with the plot, doubtlessly it was fairly similar to the other one/s (fill in as desired); but can I just say that the baby – a Frozen/Tangled enthusiast – thoroughly enjoys Willo the Wisp (Kenneth Williams, 19981) on Youtube?
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