So please tell us snafu if it is consistent to let Israeli/Australians back into the country that have seen military service in the occupied territories? They have blood on their hands as well and it’s State sponsored. There are literally thousands of young Australians returning to Australia after doing Israeli military service. What is the difference?

My answer? I despise religion so those who go abroad to fight on religious grounds shouldn’t be allowed back anyway, but I can’t see that idea being very popular with anybody with a smattering of Hebrew!
A difference between those doing Israeli military service and fighting in a civil war on the irregular side – I guess that the Israeli trained soldiers are, well, trained and disciplined and (hopefully) not expected to go off on a one way suicide mission afterwards, although it would appear that both sides have been brainwashed into thinking that they need to fight for their theological mindset rather than what is right for peace and their community.

So back to the Australian Muslim boy and the Australian government – what is happening?

Was debating whether to put this on the Canadian Lancaster visit thread on Historic…just in case.

Poor old Nigel – from party leader to the right-wing political equivalent of the man chasing round Horse Guards Parade after Trooping the Colour with a dustpan and brush…!

UKIP leader Nigel Farage has visited a Thai constituent and her husband to apologise after another of the party’s MEPs described her as a “ting tong”.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-28853031

Always someone else’s mess, eh Nigel? But I bet his roses are lovely! ;o)

Of course, what we are witnessing is little different than the (misguided) Middle Age crusades that were fought to “convert” people to Christianity, so I am not sure the “West” can claim to be whiter than white, but most developed cultures now seem to agree that violence/fear is not the best way to “sell” your religion or and/or values to the unbeliever.

Mention here could also be made of what happened to South American natives under Hernán Cortés; not that they were that much better before he ‘converted’ them, but at least the slaughter was between themselves.

…how can anyone ever try to “reason” with an indoctrinated religious sect who see martyrdom as a virtue?…

One view point might be that that is what genocide is for… You will probably find that most here would like to ‘reason’ via the barrel of a gun. That is, someone else doing the reasoning, of course.

And if we try to use force rather than reason aren’t we lowering oursleves to their level…

“But it’s the only language they understand…” Someone will say it, or words to that effect. Just you watch.

…and short of eradicating every single person who believes in IS and their current methods, we risk leaving a lingering trace of hatred that will simply rise again at a later date.

We – the west – have left numerous lingering traces of hatred behind wherever we’ve invaded or intervened; there will always be someone who feels the need for revenge for what happened to their forefathers when they rose up previously.

Personally I’d put em up against a wall and….

…get them to repoint it?

You really think that, when identified, they will try to re-enter Britain after this?
If they try then they will be caught. And when they are caught they can be prosecuted; but they don’t fear death because that will be when they enter their goat-filled imaginary paradise, so I’m guessing that if faced with the option of being caught or martyrdom they will happily choose the latter.

Soccer hooligans can and do have their passports revoked so that they cannot travel.

Not yet seen football (not soccer, please; we are not yet an American state) hooligans beheading anyone in a publicity video, but if they had done so I’d imagine the authorities would incarcerate them too – so that they wouldn’t need a passport…

Wait for our ‘British’ religeous warriors to return and remove their passports. That’ll solve the problem won’t it? Err, no it won’t. They’ll simply appeal to one of the numerous ‘rights’ organisations that have proliferated since the dawn of EU Human Rights and we the taxpayers will start shoveling large and therefore very convenient amounts of ‘compensation’ that will, at least in some measure, find its way into funding arms purchases for eventual use in the major cities of Europe.

I don’t recall that sort of thing happening in Europe with the IRA and other terrorists in the past, except when the law screwed up and effectively gave them a get-out-of-jail-free card, so you can get down off your anti Europe soapbox.
If it is proven that the Jihadist’s were involved then they get thrown in prison, like those that have been proven to have been supporting the events in Syria; throwing anyone whose passport looks a little dodgy in detention will only help the IS’s PR department and their recruiters.

Don’t underestimate the size and importance of the support available in this country from our resident jihadist sympathisers.

Which is why things need to be done properly, by the book, so that no one escapes via the usual c0ck up by the police/solicitor/government.

I would hope that the European security services have knowledge of people who have departed the shores of Europe for the middle east to participate in the conflict.

You’d like to think so, wouldn’t you… Don’t get your hopes up.
They might have left these shores for…Africa, for the Far East, or South America. Then they go elsewhere, maybe directly to the Middle East, maybe to Asia, but eventually they get to some place where it is easy to slip through the net; and if/when they come back they might mix with innocents who will inadvertently mask their trail and make it difficult to pick them out.

If those people then attempt to return to Europe i’d then like those security services to immediately detain them, if it was not deemed more beneficial to allow them to retain their liberty for a period to enable the identification of other dangerous scum, remove their right of abode in Europe and return them to the middle east.

If they were known to be guilty then they’d be detained anyway. If there is no proof then a lot of innocents are going to be rather pee’d off and trouble would be stirred up amongst those who were not followers until their family members started being detained at airports on spec.

If they are clearly identified as having commited atrocities i would argue that they should be returned to a country that objects to those atrocities and does not have the level of human rights protection afforded European residents.

??? Like where – Guantanamo, via extraordinary rendition, again? Yeah, no bad feeling around the world from that caper last time…

WE OBJECT, but we cannot just send our guilty identified’s to (for example) Angola, Venezuela, Indonesia, North Korea, etc, because – quite apart from anything else – if they have been identified as having committed atrocities then they should be prosecuted: if not here then why not in Iraq?

Given the clear rejection of European standards why should they be granted European levels of protection and right of abode?

Because we are better than that. Our compassion is not to lower ourselves to their level and give them a few seconds of pain before discovering that paradise doesn’t exist, it is to let them suffer day after day of boredom in a paradise of blandly painted brick walls in a smelly shared cell, lousy cooking and abuse from other prisoners for the rest of their miserable lives.

I see jonny g is attempting to blame the EU for the murderous scum now as well… sigh.

When you think about it, John and these idiots share one or two ideals: conform to my will or suffer, a hatred of other mindsets not doing what he believes in, you get the picture.

In my view anybody who expresses islamic fundalmentalist tendancies or even merely support for such should be removed to an islamic state.
(I deplore all openly practised religion, and can only just about tolerate religious belief practised privately. Religon is a refusal and denial of individual responsibilty and accountability in my view.)

Nice idea, but whilst there are other religions around – and freedom of speech – it won’t happen; think Jews and a well known but grouchy national socialist leader of the 1930’s-40’s…

Mind you I’m suspicious.

Of course you are, that is why you are being watched…;o)

Or the former Duguay-Trouin, captured 3/11/1805 and eventually, shamefully, sunk 2/12/1949.
Too expensive for restoration in post war Britain she was offered to France, who declined for similar reasons. So she was towed out to the east of the Isle of Wight and sunk by explosive charge.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]231142[/ATTACH]
Implacable being towed out to be scuttled

[ATTACH=CONFIG]231144[/ATTACH]
Note that the stern facia has been removed, and is displayed at Greenwich

[ATTACH=CONFIG]231145[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]231146[/ATTACH]
Implacable sinking

A video, in French, showing the ship being scuttled and demonstrating that jerky camera movement is nothing new – http://www.wat.tv/video/16mm-1949-fin-duguay-trouin-2fgc7_2jy7f_.html

Subsequently the World Ship Trust was founded, which features the Implacable’s stern on it’s badge with the motto “Implacable – never again“.

You may not be aware that soccer is an English word coined to differentiate the game from rugger in the late 19th century – i.e. Association Football as opposed to Rugby Football. It was widely used between the wars when my father used it and so I and those of a similar age grew up in the 40s and 50s using it. Americans and Canadians adopted it from us.

Wasn’t aware, just used to referring to football and having to qualify my opinion by pointing out that it was played with a round ball, no body armour and you weren’t allowed to pick it up.
Now rugby, they were shocked to discover, was similar to their football yet still without body armour: I used to get asked how many players died each year…

I’ve come to the conclusion that those fundamentalists who are are of age when fact based thought and reasoning should be available to them have clearly opted not to employ those abilities, even less so than jonny g. 😉

Hate to say it but you are describing the youth of the UK, Islamist or not.

Thus there is little to no point in attempting to reason with those creatures as they will simply view this as a sign of weakness.
There is a massive task required to reach the young who are still in formative stage and enable and encourage them to apply fact based thought and reasoning when they reach the stage of being able to do so.

We have to talk with the young Muslims, we need to show them that this sort of thing is not the best way for them or for their collective future. The problem is that we might not be the best people to convince them.

Whilst i do understand that short term violence will breed more violence i sadly do not see in the short term another way of halting the spread of this evil.

An eye for an eye will turn the whole world blind…
That would depend on which side has the most behind it, of course.

When it comes to the removal of those who are known to have participated in the conflict i would suggest that this is done with minimum fuss and publicity. Not at all in the style of Guantanamo.

No? Not Gitmo via Poland, Gan, Afghanistan, Prestwick, etc…?

If others of the apparent same religious persuasion who are not inclined to agree with such evil are impacted that will be unfortunate but i would argue should encourage them to stand up to the fundamentalists in a stronger fashion than the apparent peaceful majority appear to have done to date. Having said that they will probably take the easy route and become fundamentalists as well. If that does occur then it will illustrate that religion is itself the issue and we as a soceity will have to confront that and choose how to deal with it.

Unfortunately it is the ones who disagree with the evil fundamentalists who tend to inform on them; we are not likely to appear to be the better side to back if we are interning the innocent without reason.
But banning religion – all religion – would be a much better option…;o)

With regard to freedon of speech i am fully in favour of such until it gets to the point when it is advocatng the downfall of the very structures that allow freedom of speech.

But if we lose freedom of speech where does it stop? We’d be banning everything that we disagreed with, but lets remember that when the BNP was allowed to send Johns mate Nick Griffin along to appear on Question Time it showed just what sort of people they were, how crazily paranoid they were, and how ill-prepared for publicity – let alone office – they were.

I do like the idea of simply locking these idiots up and throwing away the key, but would want to ensure that the costs of detention are sufficiently cheap and the place of detention is basic to the extreme. No tv’s, videos, books (including religious texts) just a wall, blanket and bars for them to live out the rest of their days staring at.

Certainly no TV – can you imagine what state their minds would be if they escaped after a few years of day time tele…? But they need association with other prisoners to rehabilitate them, the sort of thing that is rumoured to go on in the showers…;o)

You’ll have to excuse me, I haven’t had your distinct advantage of a ‘higher education’ !

Don’t be too eager to illustrate your ignorance so quickly, John. You can always claim you attended the old university of life.

But that only contributes to yet another issue – growing Islamic fundamentalism in our prison system. You can’t totally isolate them, because that is against their human rights.

But there is a complete lack of privacy, which makes secret cabals difficult to maintain.

We could of course adopt the extremely condescending notion that all these people require is some education, but I welcome anyone to approach these people and explain to them that their way of life is immoral.

A condescending notion indeed.

Ok. So far:
Amin, 1
Hitler, 2
Mother Theresa ignored for not being a world leader
Saudi rulers, various unnamed, 1
Stalin, 1
Mao, 1
Pol Pot, 1
Kim Il-Sung, 1
Kim Dynasty, 1
Muldoon, 1
Kim Jong-un, 1
Thatcher, 1

Come on! This is not looking good for the quarter finals…

Absolutely, but allowing evil to stand with no retort will likely provide the same result or worse. At some point you have to say we are not standing for this and we have more moral, intellectual and plain hard currency (numbers) than you so we will win.

Maybe, maybe not – just how much were they asking for as Foley’s ransom? If they got even part of that for each of the other westerners who have been ransomed then they can afford to buy their friends. And if they are prepared to go along the route of one martyr for dozens of infidels then numbers won’t matter until they’ve wrung their barrel dry.

I was thinking somewhere very desolute and sandy.

Blackpool?

Again i agree but at some point the question has to be asked, is repying on the good folk effective (enough) ? For me i’m not all that bothered about appearing to be the good side in the short term, that is a long term goal once a sufficient degree of control has been established.

How long do you envisage the short term to be? Months? Years? Decades?
At some point we are going to have to trust the good Muslims and take them onboard and into our confidence – which won’t happen if we’ve locked them up because they look funny and waterboarded them twice daily to see what they know.
If you were a North Korean would you trust the dear leader’s judgement that it was all for the greater good after being locked up for asking when the next food delivery is due and your neighbour and his immediate family slaughtered for thinking that something is wrong with the system? Things we take for granted now in Britain cannot be taken away from just a segment of our society, defined by their invisible friend of choice and possibility that some may have thoughts about the way of life of those who don’t believe in said non-existent deity.

I also believe too much has been conducted for political reasons in the full glare of publicity and without enough consideration of operational security and thus effectiveness of actions. It is essentially weak political leadership that has allowed the situation to get to this point.

It is the only one we’ve got – and it isn’t going to get any better!
Things have been conducted on the quiet – I was unaware that others had been released after a ransom was paid, that they had been harshly treated but told not to say anything about that because the other captives would be punished, or that the Americans had tried and failed to rescue Foley . I imagine that our ‘weak’ leadership has been caught on the wrong foot by the execution video and decided that no matter what they do there is little that can be done to help the other American journalist so they’ve let the world see what kind of evil monsters IS is.

In my view the political classes have become too focused on the capitalist mirage of the pursuit of wealth, heavily influenced by those who stand to gain from such activity. As a result the basic responsibilities of leading a country have been allowed to take at best second place.

But the leaders have been nicely compensated so far, and no one wants to see their cash cow slaughtered, don’t you agree…?;o)
Unfortunately the Iraqi leadership cadre have been taught by the same American mindset that blundered with Vietnam (fight their battles until US public will has demanded their boys home and leaving the home team with well trained capitalists and their Swiss bank accounts but a curate’s egg of a military and a dedicated enemy).
What is needed is for a proper multi national peace keeping force with proper international backing and a mandate that says that they don’t stop until the problem is properly sorted out, one way or another. Ho hum.

The day when humans finally stop believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden will be a good one. But you and i know attempting to ban religion will sadly have the opposite effect.

…Yeah, force it underground and destroy society by letting them plot and plan and overthrow elected governments. I know…;o)

True, particulalry with regard to the bnp and griffin. I certainly do not advocate removing freedom of speech but allowing folk to lecture impressionable young people and indoctrinate them with the idea that the freedoms allowing such lecturing are evil and should be removed seems rather contradictory to me.

You never met a missionary before? Such is their zeal it’s almost as if they get paid more for the attempt than for the convert! (I met one, in South London of all places, trying to ‘return’ the lost and fallen sheep of Brixton and Herne Hill, offering lectures and sustenance to teenagers and adults alike and being royally ignored by all as he prattled on).
Do you really think that lecturing Muslim extremists that all they believe is wrong is really going to work? If they lectured at you wouldn’t you be scared that they will convert you?
My view is that it would only work if those being lectured at are either susceptible and aren’t as convinced as they thought, or the carrot-and-stick routine is carried out using electrodes and probes – and we all know the latter is not (apparently) allowed by law.

There definately comes a point when the alienation and indoctrination of those young is at such a level that rather than see the obvious crap the fundamentalists (both islamic and christian) spout, as you and i do, they are drawn more and more to it as an explanation for their own failures.

But, like UKIP, they have no failures; it is always bright blue skies and success all round!

Ouch

I must bow to your insider knowledge.;o)

Oh dear still confused isn’t he.

It’s because he has to share the UK with immigrants, especially illegal ones. Makes him a little light headed and unable to think properly.

It’s jolly good to see you two agree on so many things. It augers well for the future of the forum. May I suggest that the forum embargoes future ‘snafus’. How many do we need for Heaven’s sake? We’ve got ‘son of Snafu’, or, brother, do we really need aunts, uncles, cousins, the milkman amd sundry illiterates ?

You are getting there, aren’t you John, but maybe you should start with something funny first though, just to string your audience along and make them think you actually meant to leave all those long and boring bits in.

So you weren’t aware of the use of the term ‘soccer’ ? I would have thought that you of all, would have known that. I had you down as a ‘soccer’ supporter. Have I misjudged you ?

Yes, I was unaware. And I admitted it, and you’ve pointed it out again even though I had acknowledged that fact already: well done you. You must be so very, very proud…

You write that you obtained ‘higher education’. Did you get an ‘ology or, a 2.1 in medya studies ?

Now I’m confused with your confusion – are you flirting with me or the other guy now?

Thanks for the correction. The mistake was due to the influence of either snafuA or, snafuB – difficult to tell them apart.

Isn’t it just; in fact I can’t remember which one I am. But I do know I’m not John Green – I am not that confused.

It is rather a strange thing to feel the need to come out with the above randomness, a little obsessive methinks.

I think he fancies you, and I’m feeling a bit left out.

I know that you find the concept of taking responsibility for your actions difficult but please do try harder.

I going to back John, here. I just know he will come back at you with something pithy and demonstrative of his well matured wit.

Substitute snafu’s for black’s, asian’s and foreigners in general and you have jonny g’s true feelings.
Careful jonny, you may actually be honest and expose yourself if you keep on in this vein.

Come one John, did you see what he said about you there? Are you going to allow the truth about you to be exposed like that? Again?

Tell him, John, type something that will really knock his socks off (although he’s a lefty, John, so he might not be wearing socks – but (gasp) sandals!!! He might even have a (shock) donkey jacket! What a thing to own, eh John? It’s a well known fact that sandal wearing donkey jacket owners don’t wear socks at the same time! That’s evil! And unsporting! He can’t be a real Englishman if he is as unsporting as that, damnit! Go on, report him to the police for not being a proper Englishman!) and put him in his place.