FloggerAnd the US allowed Russians to build whole aircraft in Russia too! But it doesn’t mean the MiGs belong to America.
So if Chinese people build a J-6, it belonged to Russia because the Russians allowed them. And when the Russians build a MiG-15, it belongs to the UK because they allowed them to build the plane (along with the Nene.)
Is that what you are saying?
tell me who designed the MiG-19, was it Mao or Artem Mikoyan?
Who designed the MiG-19, Mig-17 MiG-23 MiG-15? was not the great Artem Mikoyan?
FloggerBS from Flogger. China never flew the J-7 until 1968, which is years after the said blueprints were delivered. Not only that, they had encountered many problems from the original Soviet design that they had to overhaul the design piece by piece, reengineering the gaps, designing compatible parts to replace Russian parts that was deemed inadequete, until the plane is perfected. The J-7 never came into service until the mid seventies, well over ten years after the blueprints were delivered.
hehehehehehe
OH! incredible unbelieveable oh!………………hehehehehehehehehe so where they learnt such technologies?
Perhaps the Chinese engineers learn everything by internet university.
You are falsifying the truth, China was trained and supplied with all the tools by Russia even to the degree they could fly the first MiG-21 built in China in January 1966.
FloggerFlagger,
India also produced cheap clone of Russia stuff and sold to other countries, heard of AK47 incident? They never got the license and the right either.
I have never said India has not used the same tactics but undoutedly in aircraft they have not, i will confess you something the chinese were quit smart in cheating Russia but in 2006 you can buy Ak-47 even built in California US.
The whole point as a national strategy China has achieved great feats in aviation but at least addmit China has been trained and helped by Russia.
FloggerFlogger, you are the one lying—once again. The Chinese engineers were trained with constructing the MiG 17 and the MiG 19, but they were not adequetely trained with the MiG-21. At least the Russians were not able to complete the job, and so was the technology transfer by 1962 when relations went into a complete nosedive. The Russians have restrained their transfers and every Russian in China is being kicked out.
you are totally misguided they trained the engineers in Russia in the then latest technologies in aircraft design gave the blue prints and machinery and even some MiG-21s the fact the later the Soviet Union and China broke relations had no effect in the production beyond delaying a little the series production of the MiG-21 in China for a couple of years.
The Urban legend you want to make is to hide the real event and glorified a false History tainted with chauvism.
FloggerJealous of Chinese people? Who knows. You were banned from a Chinese forum (which is full of non-Chinese) because you repeated the same racial stereotypes over and over and over again. You also took up massive bandwidth with that insane Flogger thread.
Hey, you brought it up.
And the design Nene engine that allowed Russia to go into the jet age came from the UK and the base design of all jets came from Nazi Germany.
The fact remains that China actually built the J-7, Q-5, J-6, H-5 and H-6 and then export them for either cash or political influence in Albania and several dozen other countries. They didn’t have to depend on Russia for the parts.
“Design”? There are literally thousands of designs around the world that are left unbuilt because there is no ability to actually manufacture them.
China builds airplanes in their entirety IN China and IN massive numbers. We don’t see any of that ability in India. If we did, we wouldn’t be hearing excuses like “we respect their rights” :rolleyes:
Sorry, but that is such a silly excuse. You are saying India respected the Russians so much that they even refused to design their own planes?
But even taking away the J-6, J-7, H-5, H-6, the Chinese have the K-8 and Y-12 which have sold hundreds. There are no Indian jet trainers in Egypt, Sri Lanka, Zambia or a half dozen other countries. I don’t see an Indian light transport/liason plane in Kenya, Peru, Tanzania, etc. like the Y-12.
Look at the numbers, they are so one-sided that any comparison is ludicrous.
hehehehehe
Relax Golden dragon i guess you haev to bring you useless defend of why China can build an entire Russian aircraft you want to know the answer once more Russia granted the whole aircraft from airframe to engine including avionics so the chinese did not need to depend from parts directly from Russia No Chinese engine except by the new Kunlun is domestic all previous jet engines were copies of Russian jet engines
See is not the Chinese designed the whole aircraft but that the Russian allowed to build the whole aircraft in China
FloggerMore BS and lies from you. Russia never trained in any Chinese engineer in 1965 because both countries have already broken relations in 1962. In fact, the relationship was broken right at the time when the MiG-21F information was in the process of being transferred.
so where were trained Oxford University? Berkeley?
you are the one who lies, any Chinese engineer making the MiG-21 had to knew all the systems of such aircraft in order to build it, had to be familiarized with russian technology and design phylosophy and more important the only nations helping China were the Warsaw Pact and Russia to design jets in the 1950s early 1960s.
FloggerYou are the one with a distorted view of history. Russia did not provide all the necessary information completely. In fact, China had to reengineer all the gaps to create compatible pieces before they could finally fly the plane—several years after the original blueprints were given.
Another ignorant statement. The tooling needed to create the airframe components of one plane and another are different and specific to one type of plane.
Why should they? It is cold war. The Soviet Union uses a rip off of the Rolls Royce Nene engines on the MiG-15 and MiG-17. The Atoll is a ripoff of the Sidewinder. The Soviet Union does not respect the IP rights of other countries either. Furthermore former Warsaw Pact nations all got their copies of AK-47s and T-55/72 tanks and selling them, as well as being able to manufacture parts of the MiG-21 on their own. You extol the Ukrainians who happen to be trying to sell jet engine designs from the Soviet Union.
But their ability to test is not. Do you understand the basics of this? You think projects succeed on a matter of design? B*****. It’s 1% design and 99% testing. The reason why WS-500, WS-11, WS-9, WP-14, and now WS-10A are all now certified while the Kaveri is not, and probably not for a long time, lies in the vast difference between the testing infrastructure between the two countries. The Chinese could do the entire development loop inside the county. All the testing can be done internally. But for the Kaveri they have to send the engine to Russia, had to be flown in some Tu-16 testbed. (Ironically Tu-16s are made in China as H-6s). The Kaveri has not lifted an entire airframe on its own power, but the WS-10A has done so with a complete Su-27. Why can’t India make an engine testbed on its own? Why not develop the entire testing infrastructure within the country so the entire development loop can be executed within the borders?
One reason why the LCA is so late, is ironically explained in the title of this thread—only four prototypes after all these years. If you had built more prototypes, the testing process would have accelerated. A typical fighter needs about 1500 to 2000 flight hours; the LCA has achieved only somewhere between 400 to 500 between all protoytpes.
All your BS about Russian and Israeli assistance also shows your gap about the development process (as well as in your mind). Assistance is useless without testing. All the advisement still had to be tested, tested, and even more testing. Not all will be accepted or validated. Some of the advisement may even produce bugs on their own. All a matter of testing, testing and testing. That—the entire test loop—is something China can do all inside internally
Crobato you only say smoke, please no Chinese serious aeronautical engineer will agree with you specially in 1965 because Russia trained all the Chinese engineers who build the J-7
Flogger:rolleyes: Ever heard of a trade war? Russia could always bring it up in court. It doesn’t because there is no case.
The J-7 is sold around the world. The K-8 is sold around the world. The CJ6A was sold around the world. The Y-12 is sold around the world. A half dozen other Chinese models are sold around the world. Not one intellectual rights suit brought against the Chinese aviation industry.
Just because you are jealous doesn’t mean your sour-grapes accusations have any weight.
If the Russians thought they had a chance of winning, they would have brought a case to somebody. The J-7 is still selling today and will probably sell until the final production line is turned over to the FC-1.
Then the FC-1 will sell 😀
Jealous of what? is Russia a part of WTO?
for the Russians the only thing they are going to do is do not allow any Su-27 be sold without the Russian authorization.
They can do nothing about the MiG-21 becasue those agreements have more than 44 years old.
In the 1990s Russia was in total chaos to care about that.
In 2006 any Su-27 coming from China will need to respect licenses..
Also what happened betwen two communist countries 44 years ago are of little importance now.
But you are avoiding one simple fact and that is the J-7 is a MiG-21 build in China and not a domestic design all the Mig-19s China sold to Paksitan are MiG-19, same all the Q-5 fantam same all the Tu-16s sold by China to Egypt or all the Il-28 sold to Albania by China
FloggerWhat “excuses”? The J-7 is sold around the world. Why would we need to excuse something that is accepted as Chinese. What part of the J-7 is made in Russia? Russia has never bought a case against the J-7 for “violating” any non-existing intellectual property. And if they feel the J-7 belongs to them, they can always cut contracts with China.
When has Russia or any communist government ever respected IP rights? Have you ever saw the Tu-4/B-29? Do you know what the Nene engine is? It came from England and was the base engine for ALL of Russia’s subsequent jets. Ever heard of the AIM-9 Sidewinder? It became the Atoll and was the basis of ALL of Russia’s ifrared AAMs.
Where are the payouts to Rolls Royce and Raytheon from the USSR? :rolleyes:
India respects the deal because they are incapable of fully manufacturing the MiG-21 even today. They are dependent on Russian parts to the point that when the MiG-21s are falling out of the sky, India was blaming Russia for bad parts and Russia was accusing India of buying bad parts from Eastern Europe :rolleyes:
BTW, Flogger, thanks for bringing up the economy and India’s lack of resources and budget as a reason they are behind. Extreme poverty one of the major reasons, anyways.
What lame excuse you give.
The former Soviet Union when granted the license of a MiG aircraft also granted the engine of such MiG that is the reason why China cheated Russia and the Soviet Union.
China builds the engine and all the related equipment because the Soviet Union granted the whole aircraft England a capitalist country is harder to cheat than MiG, check how slow has been the Rolls-royce deal
Why you expect Russia to do? go to a war, Russia lacked the capitalist market instruments to protect it`s rights.
But India has good relations with Europe and Russia and no intentions of selling their jets as it`s own.
FloggerOf course India didn’t. If you build an aircraft that is still owned by someone else then you can’t sell it. China doesn’t have that problem. Chinese aircraft are made in China and China sells them. India simply didn’t and doesn’t have anything sellable.
Obviously, since you depend on parts from the country that owns the rights. If you did sell, you wouldn’t be able to assemble your aircraft anymore when you’re embargoed.
Chinese aircraft like the J-7 or Y-12 and any of the dozen or so export models made in China are owned by China. No embargo can stop the J-7 from being produced because all the parts are made in China.
🙂 Licensed built, the Z-9 is one of those aircraft where China created as a joint venture with EuroCopter. If China “xeroxed” it, Eurocopter wouldn’t be continuing with five other projects in China.
And it has sold and will sel more in the futurel, unlike the Dhruv. Unlike the Dhruv, the Z-9 fleet won’t be grounded because of a foreign part.
Actually, post 42 was addressed to Flogger who brought up economics. He was making the excuse that India was behind because it was much poorer. For once, I actually agree with him.
My first post was actually to a fellow Chinese, TinWing, stating in no uncertain terms that his thread is nothing but a flamebait since there is no comparison between India and China. There is no connection and no relevancy between the two of them.
Correct. If you want to bring up “dictatorship” and “communist propaganda” and all that BS then you better be able to answer why a “free” country like India is so much poorer than a “dictatorship” like China.
Actually, my attitude is that of a Chinese, mainland or otherwise. I’m as proud of Taiwan and Hong Kong as I’m of China.
Face it. For too long, Indians here were able to get away with these idiotic insults like “drones” and “clones” and “communist propagandists” because many of the Chinese here simply ignored it.
I find it distasteful that a people who have nothing to crow about not only insults the Chinese but also Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans as “tinpot dictatorships” and “incompetents” just because they buy Chinese aircraft.
Actually, I find that even more disturbing. I can partially understand the hatred of China because of jealousy and misplaced rivalry. But insulting people just because they bought Chinese aircraft is indicative of deep and bizarre hatred. Hating not only your (imagined) rival but also all of his friends :rolleyes:
Now where were you when your friends were calling us “drones” and “clones” and using stupid little insults like “Oracle” for Pakistanis :rolleyes:
You want a fresh start? Keep politics out of it. Talk aviation. If I show you that China has out-exported India in aircraft, don’t come back with stupid politcal remarks like “dicatorship” and “clone.” Because I’ll point out that China is a trading nation with FAR, FAR more trade ties to the world than India and if China had violated IP laws on its aircraft, it would be brought before the WTO.
And don’t insult Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Sir Lanka and other buyers just because they bought Chinese. If you do that, then you better answer what makes India better than them when Indians are among the poorest and most desperate peoples in the world.
All your excuses why China does not respects The MiG-21 license comes from a very distorted History of the Chinese aviation.
The MiG-21 and the J-7 are the same aircraft and the Russian gave all the technology, blueprints, machinery training and MiG-21s samples in order to China build them
Besides China alredy had all the machinery of previous MiG-19s and MiG-15/17s and their related engines to start the MiG-21 production
China sells the J-7s becasue simply does not respect Rusia`s rights after they broke relations
India`s case was different India has never had even a border war with Russia or broke relations as China did while doing a MiG-21, India respected the deal simply because they had normal relations with Russia/Soviet Union
All the aircraft China sells such as MiG-19/Q-5 Fantams, J-7/MiG-21s, Tu-16s are Russian aircraft copied and sold by China illegally but since Russia can do little, they could not do anything any way the MiG-21 is utterly obsolete.
The Su-27/Al-31 is different China can not sell them illegally.
Same is the MiG-27 and Su-30MKI Russia has learnt to protect it`s rights.
While You and many call China feats totally domestic but the reality is China has a less powerful aviation industry in terms of designing capabilities as you and many claim.
India and China in designing capability are more less in a similar level.
The J-10 has IAI technology and uses lots of Russian and Israeli tech, the J-8II uses russian designed engines since the R-13 is a derivative engine of the R-11 that was license built in China.
The FC-1 has russian assistance and engine, through all the Chinese aircraft endustry you will find Russian assistance and tech.
China more less have some skills in designing the airframe proof is the JH-7, China has also achieved engine design in the Kunlun but in reality China has just started and still can not fit the J-10 with a domestic engine
China has to respect the Embraer-Harbin ERJ-145 deal, all the Eurocopter licenses and even the Su-27 deal.
India and the LCA, Druv, Kaveri shows it is in the same level.
India is not selling any MiG-27 or Jaguar as domestic designs simply becasue India has kept all the agreements.
FloggerThat so sounds like this sure-win of a
throughbred that I lost an arm and a leg in a couple of
so years back in the Aqueduct tracks :p .While I am not sure about any of this engine stuff, however, because
Germany, Japan, and Italy lost the war almost pathetically, I was of the opinion
that they were restricted by the Americans on what they can or can not make. And ofensive
weapons I thought was off limits to all three. Hence, you get Nissans, BMWs (BTW, BM is now British), and
Lamborghinis which in turn is own by Audi and who knows who it belong :p .Man!!! There goes that througbred again :p …
Anyway, that my friend is a statement spoken out of pathetic
defiance and no more than that. For example: We all know that India was
instrumental in the development of the Hara Krishna faith, however, who would’ve known
that “IMPORTS” such as Mother Teresa will put them to shame.It’s time to come off of a that ego trip!!!
For whatever this’s worth:
To this day, I still considers the Ukraine an element of
the Russian Empire. Don’t forget, if I’m mistaken, Mr. Brezhev himself
was a Ukrainian. I mean do you seriously believe that he would’ve let this western sucking
Yushchenko guy call the shots if he was still kicking?Technicalities, technicalities!!! Ukraine, in my book, is Russia.
The Japanese are not going
to like what I say (denials even) but the truth is the
truth so here goes nothing:Did you not know, Mr. Flogger, that Japan is but a chip off of the old
China block so to speak (derivatives of Han & Tang era) and that what you
see in Japan you can envision in its bigger cousin to the west? Therefore, it’s pathetic how
some in this world would “color code others” based on self-pitty.“It’s all about the luxuries of financial freedom, and it’s all about
opportunities. Facts: While Japan had access to both because of their alliance
with the west to gang up on its giant neighbour, the Chinese, like it is with that of India, was busy
trying to free themselves form the binds of uninvited guests.Oh!!! You know what I mean!!!
The Chinese, I’ve just heard, are in a partnership with
Europe to co-develop something like heavy lifters or something like that.
But, that does not mean that the Chinese can do it on their own. Hence can
not be qualified as a country that can built heavy lifters.Like that of the IDF which are claimed as “indiginous”, Japan’s ideas, IMHO,
too, can be deemed as purely western because techonolgy transfer can easily be had there.
Alternatively thus, the engines that powers the air bus, most likely is a part of a “work deal” worked out
between France and Japan before Japan will sign up for air bus products.For example: China, it was said, supplies the tail and other
sections of the A/C for the air bus. In other words: For these countries
to buy into air bus products, there has to be a give and take there somewhere.
And the give and take is that I’ll do the tail and you the nose.Oh!!! What’s the use!!! Envey — as it seems — is all powerfull!
.
This time i laugh more hehehehehehe
Japan forms parts of seveal engine programs, some with Prat & whiney and General Electric, others with European jet engine manufacturers such as MTU of Germany in International Aeroengines.
have you ever heard about MTU or International Aeroengines?
AeroEngines
MTU
Do you know the Japanese are designing the Aircraft engine that will power the Chinese ARJ-21 in colaboration with General Electric?
have yuou ever heard of ISHIKAWAJIMA-HARIMA?
Japan as well as Germany are super powers in aircraft engine production to the degree China can not make a V2500 jet engine type in 2006 to power the ARJ-21
the real reason Germany, Italy and Japan work in group has nothing to do with uncapability but with the jet engine market and developement costs.
International Aero engines makes more money than any jet maker in China same is MTU or Ishikawajima-Harima.
Profitability and development cost is the real reason behind such groups, simple a Boeing 777 or Airbus 380 is too expensive for a single nation to finace them, their engine safety standards are too high.
At this moment the Kaveri is in process of development same is the J-10`s WS-10, those engines have Yields that are far too low to power even a Airbus A-300.
Germany, Italy and Japan know clustering theri industries is the best alternative for a real development program.
Ukraine has also teamed with Russia for the same reason.
Before bragging is better do a logic reasoning, if China wants to enter in the aircraft business will need to team up with other nations and they have done it in all their programs from the J-10 to the ARJ-21.
by the way Japan might be racially linked to China but not socially, Japan is a sociaty that resembles more the US in 2006 than China, the US has been the Japanese cultural and economic Model.
If you go to Japan you will find the Japanese are a Democratic full blown capitalist society and a society that praises the US.
FloggerI think he’ talking about aviation industry’s infrastructure…
He makes some good points there. The two (Ind & CHN) are not in the same league...
What infrastructure is better when they are fitting foreign engines to it`s top fighter?
India and China suffer from the same problem of unreliability in jet engines.
he is saying China is in a league even of 5 nations where Germany is exclude or even Ukraine.
I do not have doubts china will be a jet engine power in one or two decades but India will be too.
belittling India and over estimating China is a farse, both nations are in the same Level.
India might be a little behind it is true but not as claimed.
FloggerI don’t agree that only in terms of aircraft exports China has a more developed aircraft industry than India, In fact, in almost all aspects of aviation industry, China is far ahead of India. If you want to evaluate the strength of a country’s aviation industry, you should look at its aviation industry’s infrastructure instead of looking at how many exciting projects the country is doing. Chinese is not high-sounding people, Chinese people like to bend our head over doing substantial works. China spent 30 years to have built two world-class infrastructures for aviation industry. One is large scale’s wind tunnel group; the other is aero-engine’s simulated altitude test facility group. In today’s world, only USA, Russia, EU (British/France) and China own such a complete aviation industry’s infrastructure. China can independently test its airplanes, missiles, manned spacecrafts, turbofan engines, turboprop engines, turboshaft engines, etc by using its own infrastructure. But India does not have such vital infrastructures. India has to send its LCA and Kavri to Europe and Russia for wind tunnel test and simulated altitude test. Can India afford the high cost of the tests for thorough tests? Nobody is willing to teach real high-tech and real know-how to you. Especially for aerodynamic design and aero-engine design, you must have long-term test data and experience and long term’s technical deposit. You can not say you have an indigenous aviation industry without these infrastructures. China already has a basically self-contained aviation industry: from aircraft general design, material, aero-engine, radar and avionics, weapon to rocket eject seats, etc. My opinion for China-India comparison in aviation industry is: China already graduated from university, India is still in junior high school.
In terms of so-called Russian license built fighters, transporters, I’d like to say it’s re-design. An example is MIG-21/J-7 case. In 1960s, China- Russia relationship broke before Russia completely transfer MIG-21 technology to China, China had to newly calculate force intensity of airframe structure, do lots of wind tunnel test to understand the characteristics of delta wing…….Now China know MIG21 and delta wing very very well and inherited and applied delta wing technology to new J-10. In end of 1990s, when Romania wanted to upgrade its MIG-21MF fleet, it asked China to provide consultant instead of asking Russian. China made the best MIG-21 variants in the world and successfully exported 600 sets to world market. As contrast, India got the complete MIG21 technology at the same time as China’s, however, up to today India even can not make a qualified MIG21. Lots of MIG-21 made or upgraded by India aviation industry crashed as serving India Air Force and hit a shame high record. China was embargoed by both east (Russia) and west (US, EU) for 30 years, however all world’s resource is open and available to India, but why India’s step in aviation industry is far behind China???? Who knows?
Some facts in my mind make me against your comment on “China and India’s avionics is in the same level”. Let me list them. May be not so systemic.
1.China’s fighter jets all use home-made radars and avionics(J7,J8,J10,J11,JH7,Q5,FC-1/JF-17,etc). For imported fighters Su-27, It is well reported that China refused the avionics upgrading proposal from Russia, and will upgrade the early-imported Su-27 using Chinese own avionics. India has no such story.
2.China has two type indigenous AWACS planes (dish and balance beam) in mass production. India has none and has to buy Israel’s.
3.The World Radar Seminar is by turns hosted by USA, China, British, France, Japan (or Russia??), the 5 strongest countries in radar technology. I never heard India has this honor.
Besides exporting airplane, China exported lots of radars to the world since 1980s. Egypt Spent 1billion USD to import China’s YJ-91 radar to build its nationwide low altitude surveillance radar network. Other customers of Chinese radar are: Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Jordan, Venezuela, etc. Another example is China’s AEGIS in 052C DDG.How is India’s radar industry??
Hehehehehehehe
Okay Germany is not in that club anotehr fantasy of many in this forum China has engine technology but Germany has not! hehehehe Germany and Italy were the pionners in jet engine design, before any kunlun the were BMW engines powering German jets and that was not in 2002 but in 1939
That is just plainly false, a the big lie that only China, England, Russia, the US and France build jet engines..
Ukraine build Jet engines that power the An-124 can China build that class of engines? In fact Japan was the first nation to build jet engines in Asia and that was in the 1980s
look for Motor Sich or Zhaporizhzhya Progress bureaux former Ivchenko from Ukraine and you will see that China is in a level behind Ukraine and the D-18 powers the An-124 unlike the J-10 that still uses Al-31s 😉
today`s German and Italian aircraft makers are in joint european aircraft programs, same is aircraft engines.
Japan has more advanced jet engine technology that China because their engines power Airbus aircraft and the new P-X jet patrol aircraft.
The Russians gave enough technology to China to build the engines and any MiG-21, Israel helped in the J-10, Rolls-royce has helped in the JH-7 engines, Russia is behind any fighter or transport copied in China.
Europe behind any Helicopter project in China.
The only aircraft that are worthed to mention as semi-domestic and which have no proper equivalent in India is the JH-7 and the J-8II, both contain lots of Russian or European technology transfers licensed or simply copied illegally but always with some base in previous Russian tech.
with this i am not saying China lacks design capability but undoutedly they have adquiered lots of technology from Russia and Europe.
have they learnt? yes they have, have they designed some aircraft,? yes they have, have they copied? yes they have.
Are they in the league of France? not yet, are they close to get in the league of France perhaps in one decade or two.
have they one of the most advanced aircraft industries ? yes they have.
On the pictures some Ukrainian jet engines
here is the link Progress jet engine maker Ukraine
FloggerThis Indian vs. Chinese comparison is all in it’s sillyness and uncostructivness sort of achiles heel of me…Mainly becouse I just cannot belive and swallow some of the claims made in both side. And it’s like a unclean spot to those maniac-cleaners…you just have to go and whipe it off…
The most ridicilous aspect in it is that mostly the participant are teenagers, only herritages from either land, not actually living there, making comments and countercomments behalf either country. It is like these countryes are somesort of fantasylands to guys that are perhaps bullyed from racist reason and they now seek some sort of escape to either countrys glorious military power. The funny thing is that it usually goes on this pattern, Indians quite naivisly boast about their military equipment and chinese side just flips. It seems that the India is real red cloath to these “chinese” kids and they just cannot handle the boasting of India…so then we end up threads like these…
Perhaps it’s just too hard to undersstand to guy like me living up here in the norht…but this whole versus thing is just silly….
…but like achiles, all great champions have their soft spots so… 😉
…may i ask few question?????
What is the main source of this supposed 100+ J-10 in service? I’ve heard lots of rumours about it and asked many times, but still nothing covincing hasen’t shown out…Can someone really proof this? I mean really give some hard data that J-10 is other than just in pre-production? I’m not asking this to bash chinese side, just to make it clear so that statements like the above could be really proved to thrut…
Is there any other pics about the J-10B than those afully-too-much photshopping-smelling ones posted in various internet forums?
So have china sold any warplanes to non-thirdwolrd country? Aside from K-8, is there any truly indegenious warplane exported?
I totally agree with you.
however i think China has indeed a more developed aircraft industry than India in terms of aircraft exports, it is true many of those are aircraft are in fact Russian license built fighters in China.
In terms of avionics also it is true China and India are relatively in the same level.
the exact numbers of J-10 is hard to know without an official figure, only conjectures are not enough but undoubtedly the J-10 is very likely in production.
I guess the Chinese must have around fifty J-10s built perhaps less or perhaps more but that is just my personal conjecture.
The engines delivery not necesarily means they have used all or they have not.
What to me that means is they already started production in large numbers but the pace of production must not be so high as many would like to think or believe perhaps 3 a month might be highly optimistic number it must be between 1-2 a month the real production rate.
in what respects design capability there is no Chinese lead because both countries to a certain degree have the skills to do it up to a certain level, the J-10 undoutedly has IAI pedigree but also the LCA has many parts not built in India
What respects selling russian designs as domestic well China leads the way 😀
FloggerIndia only assembled its first MKI a few months ago. I’m not even sure that plane is even inducted in an unit yet. Like the LCA, most of the India’s proof of “advancement” is based on smoke and mirrors.
They don’t have anything since
1) there is no frontline aircraft in the IAF that is even composed of entirely Indian parts. Not even the Indian assembled MiG-21s has all Indian parts because India blamed Russia for providing substandard parts (and Russia blamed India in return for buying them in Eastern Europe) in causing the goofy Indian crash record, and
2) they don’t export any aircraft.
Nothing homemade in the home airforce and no exports. So what exactly is there to compare to the Chinese industry where just AVIC sold 150 planes in 2004/2005? (There is also AVIC II 😀 )
In fact, it seems there only answer to the glaring disparity in every stats is that India is “free” and a “democracy” and China is not :rolleyes:
Golden Dragon
you seem to misunderstnad China a lot and apply concept out of the reality.
China has achieved some feats worthed of praise such as
A)Has taken a large number of people from an african style famine to a relatively benign poverty
B)has growth economically enough to have an economy as big as a medium highly industrialized nation such as France with a very developed aerospace industry.
All those feats are true, but technologically speaking China has used technology transfers and license built programs
Economically speaking is not a nation in the level of South Korea but in the level of Vietnam or Bolivia in what poverty levels mean for the general population.
India is not far from China as you think is very close what happens is India has worst levels of poverty and little bit less developed aerospace industry.
it is true China has a middle class in the size of Japan`s entire population but in general Chinese are poor as any developing nation citizen and that is clsoe to a billion people.
India and China will contine economically and military to growth but do not think China is a wealthy, for China or India to be wealthy they need economies in the US $40 trillion dollars sizes in 2006 and their true size are 8 times smaller.
Without realizing China as well as India used technology transfers and have absorbed them almost in the same level all this talk about the J-10 and LCA is worthless beyond a clash of chauvinistinc rethorics.
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