China official release is 30+ billions, there are suspious but no one has evidence. You may want to say China is lying, but can you guarantee India’s figure has no scandal?

The problems is spending on LCA is more than J-10, parties involve of LCA are not limited to Russian and Israel, there are also American, French, Swiss etc.

Ironically, Israelies and Russians are the largest weapon sellers for India, so this is perfectly apply to India.

Flagger,
Here is my two cents, India’s aviation industry is behind China for sure. The reason is not monetary.
in the 60’s and 70’s, China and India are in the same situation. China economy is even worst than India. At that time, they both operate Soviet’s fighters. They both got license to build Mig-21(China first got it with Mig-19 and later Mig-21)

But Chinese worked hard and kept learning to build the aircrafts, they took apart each aircraft type, learnt how it work, how the subsystem works, found the shortages, and tried to improve it.
They knew J-6(Mig-19) is not a good ground attack, so based on this they built Q-5, with a lot of modifications. TheY knew J-7(Mig-21) is not good enough to kill EWAC, so based on this they build J-8. Based on decades of experience, they built JH-7. But they still lag on engines, so they need foreign help on this area. J-10 and FC-1 are also built with many years of hard work and experience. However, they still lag behind the western by decades, they need foreign help to speed up the catch up and projects.

India in contrary, they did not care about the aviation industry(only recently), they used lazy doctrine. Everytime they need weapons, they just purchased from the foreigns. They also got license to build Mig-21, but they never cared to learn how to build the aircraft. After they reach the end of license, they just shut down to assembly line. They never try to improve it nor try to upgrade on their own. I doubt any Indian at that time take the aircraft apart and learnt from it.
They don’t have experience, management, assembly line, special tooling, good skill labors, etc.. etc..
Since their internal aviation industry is weak, everytime they need some kind of subsystems, they have to order from foreign. (They may try to build on their own, since the industry is just started, it only worsen the already delayed project)
I am no surprise that LCA keep delaying.

In summary, China has will, guts, determination to achieve what they want (hard work and keep learning), but India is not. MONETARY JUST PLAY A TINY ROLE HERE.

I do not understand why that desire of thinking China`s feats in aviation are not repetable.

A)China has profited from Russia`s economic collapse.

B) China has used Russian and Israeli experts in their aerospace programs.

C) Eurocopter has helped China in the field of Helicopters.

D)Rolls-Royce in the field aircraft engines.

E)China has license built MiG-15, MiG-17, MiG-19, MiG-21, Su-27, Tu-16, several Antonovs and their related engines; besides several Western and Russian and Israeli missiles.

India has done similarly but while you think is a matter of more intelligence by part of the Chinese, it is not, it is only matter of difference in strategy and terminology, simply India call more ofter their equipment with their true denomination what makes people think they have build less aerospace products, second India has the skills the fact is they can build almost the same technologies that China has but they need to increase their military expenditures though.

China has some domestic aircraft but many are few or totally obsolete.

Many times those design exercises are good to develop the Chinese aersopace industry but the pace of development is rather slow such as the JH-7 or anachronic in the case of the J-8I and J-8II however India has built the MiG-27 and Jaguar in larger numbers and bought enough MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 to leave those J-8II and JH-7 obsolete or overwhelemed by the numbers of MiG-27 and Jaguars .

Bit by bit the LCA is a modern aircraft one of the most advanced in Asia and by no means inferior to the J-8, J-8II or JH-7 and definitively in the class of the J-10.

What China has done excellently is technology transfers such as the IAI Lavi or Su-27.

Because China has poured more money has a better stand in their programs but India by no means is Behind as many want is simply trailing very close and in in reality very well armed.

That doesn’t mean anything. You have to consider the fact that China has a lot more current projects that it’s funding, and some of them, like the new Type 094 SSBN, can be on the expensive side. They’re developing new ICBMs, new SSNs and SSBNs, a whole new line of modern surface combatants (it’s about time), the J-10, the FC-1, the KJ-2000, various xeroxed An-12 special mission versions, the PL-12, the J-11B, they bought the Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2 recently…and the list goes on. China may have a larger budget, but they are also spending on more, and in some cases more expensive, projects. So just saying “well China spends more so no wonder India’s stuff is behind schedule” is not a very valid assessment of the situation.

SOC

no weapon is free

If China has more projetcs and more money they can recruit more foreign engineers and buy more technology therefore they can advance faster

the J-10 even many posters sword it is 100% chinese has many links to Israel`s IAI and Russia`s military complexes.

Let`s India get more money and you will see India`s military programs get faster and better.

the LCA also has links to foreign industries.

You want to say India can not catch up but that is so irrealistic, if India`s defence spending is smaller is no less efficient but undoutedly they need more money to keep so many projects and turn more projects into reality.

How can it be? A recall from my memory, China tested its first nuclear bomb in the early 60’s. India tested its first in the late 80’s, more than two decades apart.

Only in you imaginary. China is aiming far east, to Taiwan and Japan, and American’s carrier fleet. They rarely memtioned India.

Agree with MKI.
A paper project MCA? Man, you are really kidding me!!!

you are wrong India`s first nuclear weapon was in May 18th 1974, just 10 years after China`s.

you are totally wrong China fought a border war with Russia and lost it, a border war with India and won, a border war with Vietnam and lost, annexed Tibet and has threated Taiwan besides has several territorial disputes with Japan and the Philipinnes.

China has many territorial disputes.

China and India have kept a very militarized border and have a common border a strong defence for India is of capital importance because China has nukes and has fought several little short border wars and more important has beaten India in a territorial dispute.

The LCA is a response to the Chinese military re-armament and other regional threats.

technologically and militarily the Indians know the J-10 represents a great leap forward in Chinese aviation therefore it is needed a domestic respose to a potentian rival.

To TinWing:

Why the J-10 and LCA? Why not the J-10 and the T-50? Why pose a question that you know will result in a flamewar?

There is hardly any connection between India and China. They’re in different regions and has almost NOTHING to do with one another.

Why not discuss the Taiwanese, Korean or Japanese industries in comparison to China?

The Indian industry has absolutely no impact on any product on the Chinese sales list (K-8, Y-12, J-7, FC-1, Y-8, etc.) It’s neither a rival nor competition, not even in the aviation markets of neighboring Sri Lanka, Burma and Bangladesh.

So what reason is there to compare India to China and vice versa?

The J-10 doesn’t officially exist and the LCA is a non-entity in the aviation world. It’s the shadow versus the irrelevant.

i disagree flame war is only when people insult each other.

compare China to India is relatively correct since both nations are the only billon + population nations in the world and both posses nuclear weapons.

the Growing economic rates of both nations are quit high and are emerging markets.

Economically and technologically speaking China is little bit ahead in the race.

It is correct to say that both China and India are the two largest regional powers in Asia and both represent core states in their respective cultural traditions.

Both aircraft are their national attempts to achieve a domestic built and designed national light weight fighter.

Both fighters could face each other potentially in a war in the subcontinent.

Both nations have license built russian MiG-21s and Su-27s.
Both nations have built domestic aircraft.

both nations have been helped by Russia, Israel, Europe to design and built their military weapons.

The J-10 seems to be a more succesful program due to the larger chinese military budget though.

China and India have fought a limited short border war in the middle of the XX century

While the Chinese have been more succesful in building domestic aircraft such as the JH-7 and J-8II, the LCA is a relatively very advanced aircraft.

Both nations are planning to fit their first operational domestically designed jet engines and BVR missiles.

So in few words it is correct to compare both designs

China has a lot more projects going on at the same time than India. Hey building new AAW DDG and new FFG, strategic nuke force with ICBM and new SSN, SSBN isn’t exactly cheap… China has its funds spread pretty thin here. Not to mention a whole lot more troops that need their salary paid…

Simply saying India has less money just doesn’t cut it. I’d be surprised if J-10 had much more funding comming its way than the LCA did.

i am not blaming China for having a larger military budget, i just said any program needs money and that undoutedly India has skills and capabilities to build 100 LCAs but the military budget is the main reason the LCA program runs much much slower.

It is not because the Indians are less capable or have less experience, if you notice both programs represent the same level of technology however India`s runs slower due to economic reasons, if they pump more money and recruit some french, russians and americans engineers, the LCA program and production will run faster.

The J-10 runs faster because China has cared about pumpig money and foreign expertise and technology into the J-10 program

MiG-29

Hi guys!

First of all I’d like to welcome Braganças to the Forum and thank him for putting tha situatintion in a clear and objective manner.

I too am Brazilian and have followed closely the F-X bid while it ran. Here are the facts:

a) Brazilian AF intended to replace it’s fighters with one single model. This would add up to some 82-110 new fighter aircraft to replace Mirage III, F-5s and AMXs

b) First in line due to being obsolete was the M III, 24 aircraft were intended to be operated from Anapolis Airbase. The replacement of the others would follow later begining in some 10-15 year’s time

c) Several delays in this initial purchase allowed for other events to take place earlier.

c1) Embraer sold 20% of it’s shares to a French aerospace companie’s group Thales, Dassault, SNECMA and Matra (now EADS) this move was created in order to show to foreign investors and stock exchanges that Embraer was part of a larger group of Aerospace cos and would not be let out in the rain after the end of the wide consolidation process that dominated the last 10 yers or so.

c2) F-5 Modernization at Embraer got started

c3) Immediately Embraer anounced that the Mirage 2000 was it’s product for the F-X and that they would not talk to any other “competitor” since they had determined that Dassault was “the only viable option for an industrial partnership”.

d) What was supposed to be a simple technical evaluation quickly transformed itself into a open tender. This was done to block the Mirage 2000Brs chances because the FAB believed it would not last much longer in the market.

e) There were many technical offsets expected from the F-X deal but the Embraer HAD ABSOLUTELY NO OFF-SET at all in it’s offer. Embraer did whateever it could to close the tender and have the Mirage be declared the winner. The FAB did whatever it could to stop them getting their wish.

f) Sukhoi invited brazilian munitions expert Avibras to be a part of their bid, this simple move made the Su-35 and the Mirage both “national products” neutralizing Embraers main selling point

g) the firstannalisis conclude the Gripen was the best offer but the Fernando Henrique administration decided to postpone such a controversial decision at only 4 months away from a presidential election. The oposition candidate Lula won with a many millions os US$ of Embraer campaign contributions.

h) Despite this his first act was to pospone the decision for another year. Once again over the reluctance of the Brazilian Air Force’s to accept the Mirage 2000BR

i) the second evaluation focused on the technical offsets and the Su-35 won it this time.

j) the third evaluation included the opinion of several other ministries this time the Su-35 came on top once again their 3Billion US$ brazilian goods purchase pledge ewas 50% larger than the Swedish offer.

k) having found no way to push the Mirage 2000 the governement opted to quit the bid and settled on the used Mirage 2000C offered government-to government against the wishes of the French Air Force

l) The FAB accepted the “C” because they had nothing to operate in the Mirage III’s squadron, and that the older Mirage 2000C were absolutely an old and obsolete fighter that they couldn’t be forced to operate for a longer period. Forcing the reopening of the F-X bider sooner than initialy intended this tome to replace the complete fighter lineup

m) Second hand F-16 from the Nederlands, Russian Su-27 and Gripens A/B were offered but the government bought the Mirage 2000C without any realistic evaluation of the other options.

So in broad strokes this is the whole Brasil fighter inbroglio.

The sooner the “C”s arrive the sooner they be sold off! Thank god!

The Rafale is a formidable airplane but I have doubts that it will sell as well as its older brothers did. The Gripen needs orders desperately and is risking production line closure at any moment now, the prodution rates are almost comatose and no significan order appear to be on the horizon.

I miself was rooting for the Su-35 but maybe the FAB isn’t as boild as I would like it to be. Also there is absolutely NO MONEY what so ever to purchase new carrier fighters for the Brazilian Navy so NBaval compatibility plays no part in this selection. I think that the F-X will be re-opened aonly around 2012 or so, till there revamped AMX and F-5s and a hand full of obsolete Mirage 2000C, and that it!

Regards

Hammer

Hammer

I think Brazil is doing what is correct to get aircraft technology, the aircraft industry very similarly to the car industry is every year outsourcing more jobs, Embraer is in fact a company that has worked like Samsung or Sony in the industrial basis first istarted outsourcing later building a domestic technological base in Brazil.

The vast majority of Air Forces in latin America are obsolete, there is a limited market for military aircraft but few air forces want modernized their fleets and there is very limited need for military hardware.

Civil aircraft programs have a brighter future, in fact Embraer has been more succesful because despite Argentina was very advanced in commercial aircraft and in the 1920s even Mexico had some domestic designs has been quit smart in profiting from the civil aircraft market.

Mexico has signed a deal with Embraer`s the Canadian Bombardier main rival to build parts and later assemble regional jets in Mexico.

Making fighter aircraft means a need for a market and that is usually domestic like in the case of China and India, exporting license build aircraft is quit hard because usually the original maker wants do it it self and there is always more limitaions for technology transfers and sales to third parties.

Brazil`s AMX is one example even the Tucanos can be embargo.

Civil aircraft have less limitations and allow many technologies to be absorbed and some can be turned into military applications such as the R-99/ERJ-145.

The largest and more developed economies of Brazil, Chile Argentina and Mexico have more chances of developing aircraft industries in the civil aerospace sector at the moment and a miliatary program should be taken regionally in a partnership deal such as the Eurofighter or AMX programs.

A Argentinian, Brazilian, Chilean and Venezuelan small combat aircraft should be more practical rather than a national program.

In 20 years from now i see the feasability of building a latin american fighter or regional jet if Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Venezuela and Mexico continue absorbing technology