You would agree if we were both European. You would not agree only because the J-10 is Chinese.

Because it is Chinese, you ignore basic evidence and assume yourself to be an “expert” who can know more than the Israeli government 😀

It doesn’t matter if you know chinese mentality. That’s unimportant.

What does matter is that you know nothing of Chinese development nor do know the avenues of collecting Chinese information. Basically you have no information that is not Westernized conjecture or interpretation.

There are those westerners here who do know how to collect Chinese information and who do know the history of Chinese aviation development. You’re not one of those.

You are debating without any real information but at the same time you refuse to believe the Israeli goverment. You refuse to believe the obvious that the J-10 is in production China not Israel.

Your motto is more like “Right or wrong, my stereotypes of the Chinese.” 😀

I am defending the evidence, not a country. The evidence begins with the Israeli denial, the dependence of Israel on the US and the dependence of the Lavi on American technology. Everything mitigates against the Lavi as the J-10.

You are defending your stereotypes of China with nothing but conspiracy theories.

The J-10 must be Israeli to you even though the Israelis categorically denies it, that’s a pretty stupid way to argue. Don’t let prejudice get in the way of evidence 😀

David Lari is Israeli and a high ranking official from the Israeli Defence Ministry and he did not deny it, tell what aircraft technology he meant when he said Israeli aircraft technogy was transfered to China for Chinese military aircraft programs when even the Elta EL/M-2035 is very well know to had been offered to the J-10 and why some Israeli companies might have dirty hands?

he meant Arava technology? and most important why not Lavi technology since for China the J-10 was an aircraft very similar to the IAI Lavi that the Israeli experience would had been very useful and it even needed even the IAI Lavi` radar Elta EL/M-2035 technology and in fact it was offered by Israeli companies?

Israel is capable of designing high tech and China buys it, Israel is not a copycat but undoubtedly recieves help from the US and tech trasnfers butIn fact Israel has so good tech capabilities that just check nations recieving US patents and you will see Israel is on top of China and in Asia only Japan and South Korea are above Israel

Because Israel denied that the Lavi was passed to China you think its the Arava (which is less popular around the world than the Y-11/12)? Are you well? 😀

Look, it still comes down this:

There is:

1) an official Israeli denial,
2) the lack of any substantial gain for Israel from China,
3) the obvious failure of the Lavi,
and 4) the Lavi’s American technology can’t be sold without severe repercussions for the Israeli state.

Now why would Israel sell China an aircraft founded by Americans that it could never put into production and THEN deny it? 😀

Not even mentioning that to do so would be suicidal because Israel survives solely on US aid.

Try replying to logic with some logic, please.

Easy Golden Dragon, Money money money, Israel lost money lost of money when the IAI Lavi was cancelled and Israel`s arms industry have some similariteis with Russia in the fact Imports are quit important for the Israeli weapon makers.
Remember David Lari said some companies might have dirty Hands why? simply because money tempts and and some individuals will make any thing for money.

Also there is Israeli know how in the IAI Lavi, Israel is one of the most advanced countries in many high tech areas and that is not US technology.

An Indigenist theory needs to claim Israel is not a capable nation in aircraft industry but Israel recieved as much input from the US as China did from Israel and Russia even very likely even less because Israel has excellent AAM and Avionics.
David Lari`s interview proves that is not the Arava, Kfir or Galaxy technology what was transfered but the IAI Lavi technology, a fact confirmed by US Intelligence reports.

There is also a third group.

A third that believes that J-10 could have foreign influence but certainly not from a country that officially denies it and which has no history of designing a proper aircraft outside of ripping off the Mirage. Both facts weigh heavily against the Lavi.

If the US intelligence community has any solid proof, Israel would be forced to its eat its lies. It would be the biggest betrayal of the United States since the Rosenbergs sold the nuclear bomb to the USSR. (BTW, the Rosenbergs were executed for their treachery. Unlike Flogger’s stupid comment, treachery and betrayal is not “just politics.”)

Now it is possible that Israel sold American technology like radar and engine which is what China needed, not some paper blueprints like the Lavi.

We know the engine isn’t Israeli. But radar is possible. But an American radar is not the “Lavi” which could not be more than instructions on how to put American parts together. If it were more than that then Israel would have built the Lavi in numbers like China had built the JH-7.

there is not a third group that you are naming only those who say is Chinese and those who say is based on the Lavi, those who say is not Lavi based do not take the US reports niether David Lari`s interview as evidence and even deny that Israel had footing in the J-10 project with the Elta El/M-2035, and even go as far to say the J-10 is influenced by Sweden`s Gripen when we see by pictures the J-10 looks like a Lavi and the US reports and David Lari`s interview did not say the IAI ARAVA or the Galaxy technology was transfered to China yeah the indigenist theorist will almost say that the ARAVA influenced the J-10 hehehehe. 😮 and that is the technology that David Lari is talking about heheheheheh is it? when China has almost an inexistent civil aircraft industry beyond some failed jet ailiners prototypes and some russian based aircraft and few indigenous prop aircraft and has asked Brazil to help them and civil aircraft technology has not any problem since even US companies are helping the ARJ-21 program hehehehe.
Further more Israel is the second largest weapons provider to China, the PLAAF already operates Israeli equipment and has recieved tech transfers from Israel and builds under license Israeli equipment.

we can see very clearly the Arava influnced the J-10 hehehehehehe
this an statement that almost appears in the indigenist origin theory J-10 defence to deny the IAI Lavi technology was transfered to China since David Lari says Israel trasfered some aircraft technology to China and some Israeli companies might have dirty hands

here is a drawing of the J-10 is clear the Arava influence in the design hehehehehehehehe

yeah it seems that is the Arava and not the IAI Lavi the technology that David Lari says was transfered to China. :rolleyes:

This is hilarious. Lari never mentioned Lavi in the article where he was quoted in that one line.

You are citing a quote where Lari never even said “Lavi” as proof that an Israeli said the Lavi went to China.

And now because he never said “Lavi didn’t go to China” you are claimimg that as proof? How could he said Lavi technology never went to China when he never said “Lavi” at all 😀

Are you okay? Because your logic is extremely bizarre.

Look at the one single sentence that Lari was mentioned:

Flogger, do you understand what “quotes” mean? They denote words spoken by that person. According to the article YOU posted to support your conspiracy theory, the only “quotes” attributed to Lari are these: “some technology on aircraft” and “clean hands.”

It is incumbent upon you to present us with quotes where Lari ever mentioned the Lavi going to China.

Against the list I presented to you of

1) official Israeli denial,
2) the lack of substantial gain from China on the deal,
3) the obvious failure of the Lavi
and 4) the Lavi’s American technology that can’t be sold without severe repercussions for the Israeli state,

you can only quote one line where the person, David Lari, couldn’t even be quoted as explicitly saying the word “Lavi” or “J-10” :rolleyes:

yeah yeah, Lari mentions, some technology on aircraft has been transfered to China most likely IAI`s Arava or Galaxy technology, or Kfir technology? what kind of Technology it would be Golden Dragon? toilets from the Arava or ashtrays from the Galaxy specially when he says some Israeli companies have dirty hands, why? what did they sell? would not be the IAI Lavi technology developed in conjuction with the US? or secret recipies from coca cola for the pilots lunches? hehehehehehehehehe 😀 .

So what technology is he talking about?
and why some Israeli companies might have commited some dirty deals?

And you claim the Lavi is a failure so why the J-10 looks like a Lavi? same configuration why? is because yeah i know your answer same needs similar solution so in that case the Lavi is then good, ah no is a failure that used Python 3 like the J-10 ah but the J-10 is original because has no foreign technology the US reports are wrong yeah yeah.

Why to ask Israel for the Elta El/M2035 radar for the J-10?
The reality you are simply avoiding logic to protect your theories, he is talking about the Lavi and by logic the J-10 because in tht case what technologies are forbidden and what technologies China needs in fighter design specially when they are designing a jet so similar to the IAI lavi?

what China won from the Lavi technology? catch up with the US and Russia in fighter design, what won the Israeli companies that sold the technology? well simply; MONEY because for MONEY many people do any thing in fact if politically Israel would had developed the IAI Lavi would had been better than the J-10 for a simple reason, the Israeli avionics RULE, in fact the Lavi had so much avionics that was one of the most modern jets of it`s time and that technoloy has been applied to the F-16I and bet who will be the winner in the comming Su-30MKI VS F-16I mock combat armed with Python V and the Lavi would had had the same technology applied to F-16I and F-15I, where the super maneuvrability will be match up against super smart and maneuvrable missiles like the Python V

I already quoted YOUR article where Lari NEVER explicitly said “J-10” and “Lavi.”

Lari could not have contradicted the Israeli government or else the Israelis would be groveling in front of the US and the US would be force feeding Israel its lies. And we would not even be having this discussion.

The Lavi was most certainly a failure. Otherwise we would see it in the Israeli Air Force today. The IAF, incidently. doesn’t have a single homegrown jet designed from the ground up at all.

Flogger, you offer nothing but a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy of suicidal stupidity where the Israelis lie to and betray the US which is the guarantor of Israel’s survival.

Now, I will list out all the reasons again why your silly conspiracy doesn’t add up:

1. Israel denies it. You need proof of conspiracy to prove that country had lied to its protector,

2. Israel can’t gain anything from a Lavi deal with China except some minor monetary benefits. This is obvious unless you can convince me China can replace the billions in aid that the US gives Israel and China can provide a guarantee of Israel continued existence in the Mideast,

3. The Lavi is a failed project. We know this because we don’t see the production units of this thing flying,

4. Even if the Lavi was successful, it was dependent on American technology and funded by US money that can’t be sold to a third party or it would be a crime and betrayal.

Every one of the above are not opinions but facts we could see and hear. Israel said outright the Lavi was not transferred to China. Israel is still protected by the US, not China. We can’t see the failed Lavi flying in any air force. And lastly, the Lavi was dependent, “utterly” dependent, on American technology so it could not be sold without committing the crime of theft and treacherous betrayal.

All I get from you is some mumble-jumble conspiracy theory on how the Israelis lied to and backstab their own benefactors and how the Lavi “looks” like the J-10.

you proved nothing, Lari said explicity IAI Lavi technology transfered to China, unless you can use the airframe and flight control for a supersonic baby stroller heheheheheheheh, he would not even say come Israeli companies have dirty hands or do you think those companies sold to China the technology to make infrared homing pacifiers for the PLAAF?

it is not a conspiracy theory but a very real interview and very real restrctions to Israel to sell technology to China after the past israeli deals. Prove the Interview is false and he was misquoted but in a proffessional way with articles from Associated Press press releases

😀 They might as well be. Unlike the Lavi, humus and falafel are not failures and are actually usable (edible.)

So even betrayal is just politics? I don’t think a lot of Americans appreciate that. Maybe if the US switches its alliance from Israel to Palestine . . .

Hey, it’s just politics :rolleyes:

Actually, that would be good for the US because a lot of Americans can’t figure out what Israel actually gains for the US. If the United States backs the Palestinians, the US would have more friends in the critical Middle East. Yes, more friends for the US and the complete annihilation of an old “friend” who was, according to you, backstabbing it.

Now why would Israel risk hurting this friend and, more importantly, protector? Are Israelis greedy to the point of being stupid and suicidal?

Israel has already denied selling the Lavi to China and unless you can prove an Israeli conspiracy of extreme stupidity and suicidal treachery, that official denial is real.

Official denial? what about David Lari? prove that interview never happened or he has been misquoted the only denial i see is Golden Drangon`s official denial to make his J-10 indigenous theory valid.

The IAI Lavi a failure? so why China buys Israeli technology? even ask for the technology, a F-16I with Israeli avionics and Python V and Derbies is something that China in avionics and missile can not design at the moment without foreifn help even a Phalcon AEW aircraft and China got the second best option Russian.

Idiotic. Your very article talked about the “Lavi’s utter dependence for its success on not only American dollars, but also American technological know-how.”

According to your article, the Lavi was funded by Americans using American technology. It made perfectly clear that the Lavi was an American plane.

Passing American technology to a third country is treachery. Why would Israel risk its very survival by betraying and backstabbing the Americans?

I have a problem with the article because it contradicts Israel’s official position the Lavi was never transferred to China and was not involved in the J-10.

But I really have no problem with the article’s statement that the Lavi was an American-funded plane “utterly dependent” on American technology.

Because the Lavi is American at its core, Israel cannot sell it. Israel cannot sell technology that belongs to the US not Israel. Therefore the official Israeli position that the Lavi had nothing to do with the J-10.

Not that your personal assumptions has anything to do with the facts in this discussion but why do you think I would not like the J-10 to have an American background, either from the F-16 or from the American technology that Israel stolen for the Lavi?

Golden Dragon Just prove the Interview to David Lari never happened or he has been misquoted from Associated Press press realeses or articles, does not matter if you have a problem or not, a Historical Interview with an Israeli Director of the Israeli Defence Ministry says more than what i do think or what you think, if he said that IAI transfered Lavi Technology to China, that already is a proof of Israeli involvement you can not deny.
An we have more proof of that by the fact of the recent US limitations imposed to Israel in the F-35 program and the Fact Israel offerd the EL/M-2035 and Python technology for the J-10 program