Flogger wrote:

“all societies have cover ups”

So would you care to explain to me and this thread how NATO is covering up those losses that you believe in?

A conflict that took place in Europe which the worlds press focused on 24/7. A conflict that brought scores of the world aviation enthusiasts to airfields all over Europe eager to get up and close to their beloved subjects. For your belief in the ’38’ there must have been aircraft going missing right under the noses of this huge assembly of media and gathered aviation enthusiasts.

The Yugoslavs imaged to death anything from NATO that fell onto their territory. Hence we have all those images of combat-jettisoned fuel tanks and missile debris. Everytime a fuel tank was found it came with the story that it was proof positive that the aircraft had been shot down. Foreign media in Bosnia even stumbled across the combat-jettisoned F-15C fuel tanks from the Yugoslav MiG-29 engagement on 26th March 1999. Both USAF pilots punched off their externals once committed to the two Yugoslav MiG-29s. The stories of downed F-15 wreckage being found appeared within hours on the Internet. The stories are still there today seven years on that Yugoslav MiG-29s shot down an F-15 over Bosnia. Claims made even though the surviving MiG-29 pilot, Colonel Peric, gave a photo interview in which he stated that he nor his wingman even had a chance to engage before being hit by AMRAAMs.

Flogger, explain to me and this thread how those missing manned aircraft are still being covered up? You have failed to reply as to why those missing aircraft haven’t been made known as accidents? How are they doing it Flogger. How are they covering up the missing aircraft from aviation enthusiasts and investigative journalists? How are they covering up them up from magazines such as AFM. I take it that you actually read AFM? You are aware Flogger that AFM has an ‘Attrition Secton’?

You can contact them at the following:

[email]dave.allport@keypublishing.com[/email]

Flogger do some research from 1999. Maybe you have all the AFMs to date all nicely bindered, indexed and shelved?
Explain to AFM how those missing aircraft you believe in are still missing from those mult-national air forces that took part in Allied Force. Remember that there are still those that would want to rub Clintons and Blair’s nose in it with revalations of combat losses in both manpower and equipment from that period.

Here is an example of the type of mind-set that exists in relation to ‘NATO losses’.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/natolosses-review01.htm

In the above link the 2000 Observer report is referenced as is PPRUNE ‘Military Aircrew’ thread.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/theobserver04.htm

So from the Observer press article and the PPRUNE mil thread we have the following claim:

“Two out of three British Tornadoes that are grounded comes to a rather substantial number: 124 Tornado strike aircraft are not operational. The crisis begun developing following the Operation “Desert Storm” in Iraq, but it really took off since the Operation “Allied Force” against Yugoslavia. As far as I know only four NATO Tornado aircraft were shot down during the conflict based on media reports. Two Luftwaffe strike aircraft were shot down on March 26-27. The other two Tornadoes were shot down on April 15 and May 26. It was not reported whether these aircraft were German or British.

The fact is that most of RAF’s strike aircraft are out of order for a variety of reasons. I do not have enough information to draw any definitive conclusions. However, I know enough to say that 124 strategically – important strike aircraft are not grounded for no reason. NATO sustained significant losses. An even greater number of aircraft were damaged not only by ground fire but also by the intensity of operations and skipping on the required maintenance hours. After talking to several USAF aircraft mechanics, who participated in the “Allied Force”, I can conclude that NATO aircraft were pushed to the limit and way beyond it. This is especially true for the USAF aircraft. One USAF aircraft mechanic who served at Aviano told me: “Two weeks – three weeks tops – and the “Allied Force” would have been over ’cause NATO would have ran out of working planes.”

In the February 13 article in The Observer, based on first-hand information posted by RAF pilots and technicians at an Internet discussion group and entitled Pilots Vent Fury at RAF on Web, Antony Barnet writes: “Pilots currently serving in the Gulf, and others recently back from Kosovo, are so angry about defective equipment and low morale they are flooding the secret site with complaints aimed at senior officers.” The “secret” site is the PPRuNe message board for military pilots. I’ve spent several days at that site fishing for information until that Sherlock from The Observer scared everyone away with his article.”

Flogger go onto:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/

‘Military Aircrew’

Take a look at the postings and do some research. You will see aircrew from several nationalities posting. You’ll see several posters from the RAF who are not fans of the present UK Labour government and in particular the Defence Minister and Tony Blair himself. Do you honestly believe that the cover-up that you believe in would have lasted 7 years without it all falling apart on a free and open debating Internet forum? Flogger, post onto there and see if you can break this ‘cover-up’ that you obviously believe in? Just imagine the cudos you would have in revealing all those combat losses covered up as accidents? Over to you!

PS. Flogger, remember to e-mail [email]dave.allport@keypublishing.com[/email] so he can update the AFM Attrition Section. Flogger, just imagine an article in AFM from yourself revealing the ‘truth’?

TEEJ

It is interesting to see you have great faith in NATO`s press releases and little in Serbia`s Why? simple you believe your side`s History, cover ups are common, all societies practise them, your believe is He says that, he says the other, they claim an accident here, they claim an accident over there.

Saddly History is the Western world has become too graphic but at the same too bias and selective in what has been reported and shown, I asked you if you have the MiG-29 pictures that the Cesar Rodigez “Rico” shot down? do you? can you prove all NATO`s kills in Desert storm, can you provide all the pictures of each and every kill done in 1991 or in 1999? some you can some i am sure you can not provide me with the 44 wreckages.

see that the F-15 can take pictures like this (the picture is from http://www.heritageflight.org) The Israeli kills of Syrian aircraft i have seen on video have Head Up display video footage as the picture shown above of an F-15E`s head up display imagery see that De Agostini`s video is easy to get it was sold to the public some years ago, in fact the one i have, i bought it in Japan

With this i am not saying NATO always lies, no i am not saying that, just that either Side NATO or Serbia used propaganda and both sides fabricated favourable accounts for their respective populations

Why such foolish bla bla again?!
The Syrian themselves admitted the loss of around 80 aircraft losses. That official confirmation was “balanced” by counter claims. The problem for the Syrian was, that their “counter claims” were not verified officially by Israeli losses given. Most of that arial clashes took place over Syrian controlled parts of Lebanon. The Lebanese people were eager to sell pics of chrashed Israeli aircraft to the international press. If something came down there, it does not happen unnoticed from different observers. Under such circumstances every lie will undermine the credibility of a source. No problem in Syria, where the media is controlled, but not so to western countries and Israel. Israel is a small country and million of Jews/Israelis do not live in Israel alone. So the military censorship can delay the truth for limited time at best.
The historians of the UK and FRG found out, that the admitted losses and claims of the former “Germany” were much more correct than the British claims and losses given. So for years the historians fed their computers with datas about production runs and known operational losses from the logs of the units and administrations. Add to this the claims and counter-claims of the participants and you can verify those to a high degree.
It is little known, that around 50% of all aircraft losses were related to accidents and not to true arial-combats in WW II.
One question left is the consensus, when it comes to the different views about damaged behind economical repair issue.
The Israelis for decades and Russians in WW II did repair aircraft, when in the USA or UK none thougt about that possibility even.

By the way, why do you not ask the Syrians about the pics and serial numbers of their admitted losses.
How about the serial-numbers of the MiGs delivered to Syria by our Russian friends?! When it comes to the Israeli aircraft, that is no longer a problem for several years!

What poses problems really are the outdated books and links around, which were receycled from year to year without updates not to mention your claims!

Sens

You base all your points on what reports? when did the Syrian press release those number of 80:0? what day, what news paper? who released that information? when was released that information?

I think you are over estimating Western Democracy a lot, specially Western Media, no nation is this world is 100% rule by Saints and i mean perfect people who do not lie, all societies have cover ups and more Important OFFICIAL STATEMENTS.

Of course to the Western world Russia always lies specially when they talk about aircraft shot down by MiGs or Sukhois.

The Syrian air force is one of the most secretive of all the world.

In fact this the only picture i have seen of a squadron of Syrian MiG-23s, this picture was posted by Erez in the tread “having fun with google earth”

Well there you go!!…as I’v said in the past…Serbia needs to make you defense minister Kobra…

Undoutedly the main question is NATO reports must be also fabricated, how it is possible that Serbia with SA-3 1960s technologies defeated the so called Stealth bomber with a tiny force of 16 MiG-29s and SA-3s they showed to the entire world the the F-117 Stealth unvulnerability and high price tag are not as powerful, and remember that Serbia was outnumbered, outgunned and still they shot down the F-117, Serbia officially claimed another 38 aircraft many of which NATO says were lost in accidents.

Iraq in 1991 was also out gunned and still managed to destroy in the air almost the same number of aircraft NATO destroyed; 38 NATO aircraft lost in combat against 44 iraqi aircraft lost in air to air combat this is according Western acknowledged numbers.

This shows very clearly that neither NATO, Serbia or Iraq never said numbers according to the truth.

The main reason the Western powers acknowledges losses are mostly when the rivals either parade their pilots or show F-117 wreckages.
Serbia and Iraq also inflated their numbers a lot too specially in the begining of their respective wars they fought

I thought 10 MiG-29’s were sold to Yemen and one to Romania?

So add the 21 U.S. aircraft and you have 32 MiG-29’s.

Up to what i know only four were sold to Yemen, Moldova was trying to sell them that is reason the Americans bought them, the Moldovans had from very early MiG-29s to MiG-29 Fulcrum Cs, that adds up with the losses suffered against the Russian MiG-29s unless they did have more MiG-29s.

I have read they sold only four but loaned 12 MiG-29s to Yemen some of these were returned to Moldova.

On the pictures some Moldovan and Iraqi MiG-29s

How is it possible that some 7 years fater the war…the propaganda and imagination of Venik and friends…is STILL alive on the internet?

7 years later and the Serbs still have ZERO to back up any of their claims.

Eveything else aside…is ANY other aircraft was shot down over Serbia…would the wreckgae or ANY part of these aircraft have been made available, been found and so forth…7 years later?? Would any Serbian pilot or AD officer come forward and talked about how he bravely shot down 2 F-15 Eagles with his SA-6 unit (as Venik has a funny little story on his website)??? Or better yet…would 7 years later have any Serbian polits come forward to retell the brilliantly carried out and brave raid on Rinas Airport where 24 Apaches were destroyed by Serbian aircraft??? Or 7 years later the names of those brave Serbian pilots who shot down F-117s and F-15s and F-16s…and last but not least 3 Albanian F-7s…would have been released maybe??

The level of propaganda from the Serbian side was beyound believeable…

—–

11 Serb Mig-29s were lost…period…this is admitted BY THEM THEMSELVES. I don’t see the poit in this argument anymore. YES they can be confirmed all by serial number.

No MiG-29 in Serbia ever scored anything on anyone…no Serb pilot claims any missiles were ever fired to begin with.

And then of course to back up the claims…the show pictures of an A-10 dropping a flare…an F-15 dumping fuel…a Torando fuel tank and so forth. I’m sure if the Tornado fuel tank is there in the middle of a village…then the rest of the plance can’t be too far away?? Right?? So lets see it.

So how in the world do some of you come up with such fantasy??? 8 MiG-29 kills on F-15s?? When are any of these supposed to have happened?? I don’t think 8 F-15s have ever been lost in combat in total.

The MiG-29’s victories…the only ones confirmed so far…are probably 4-5 in Eritrea against MiG-21s and MiG-23s…with about 6-7 being lost to Su-27s.

PS: As for “decoys” and so forth as far ground equipent…they’r not “decoys” if they have people in them…;)

The Ethiopians only shot down one MiG-29, Ethiopia never shot down seven MiG-29 if you have the evidence prove it.

what official proof you have from the Serb Government of what you affirm?