The “destitute poor” reasoning has some flaws…

a) The “Zero Hunger” program a centerpiece of the Workers Party has encountered a great barrier during the implementation program , there simply weren’t as many “hungry poor” as the campaigning Mr. Lula had envisioned…

b) Over 80% of the Defence Ministry Budget are consumed paying salaries and pensions… A major revamp of the countries military would do wonders to reduce operating costs and enhance the country’s military capabilities.:)

😎

Lula is doing well, poverty still lingers in Brazil, and Brazil is achiving throught out civil programs enouogh technology expertise to design military jet in the future.

Sorry but now you are way off… :diablo: Aparently the Swedes/British were the only ones doing such “contributions” but apparently the last president heard about it and froze the whole program til the new government took charge… The money was wasted…

Of course the Flanker is more expensive but the offset purchases of Brazilian goods by Russia were about four times larger then the total cost of the 12 aircraft… and at the same time it´s a small number of planes flying a small number of hours a year.

Metaphorically we are considering whether to purchase a Porsche or a turbo VW Golf. But our plans (requirements) are more like driving a couple of laps a month in the city’s racetrack and not setting up a 24h taxi company… 😉

Regards,

Hammer

Brazil needs combat aircraft only to be on th edge of aircraft technology and protec south America from non Latin American military invasions.
Latin America has been invaded by the US in the past but beyond that Civil aircraft and a space program are in more urgency.

GD, it’s sad to read your replies since you ingnore so much of what I wrote. So again, I’m going to answer each and every one of your claim, since you didn’t answer mine with counter claims – just the same old stuff. And since you wrote the same stuff so many times, I’ll repeat them whenever needed. So forgive me for being a robot sometimes, but I’ll write these things until they will get your proper and full attention.

In a way. But keep in mind a single thing – Israel isn’t a part of the United States. Never was, never will be. We share same interests but not all of our interests are identical. We might have sold the Lavi tech to China. So what? the US can’t do anything about it as long as it’s not their tech. And as you can see, no engine technology was transfered. We don’t know about the FBW.

Indeed the Nesher and the Fouga were French. But you said, and I’m quoting:
“Israel doesn’t have an advance airframe design and manufacturing industry”
So manufacturing – the hell yeah. And these examples are perfect for that.
The Kfir, which is 60% a Mirage V and 40% an Israeli developed redesign, gave us the real first push with aircraft designs. The next project, the Arye, made use of fully home grown designs.
And that ends your ridiculous claim.

(copied from an earlier post. I ask you to take notes of my arguments instead of just ignoring them and repeating the same old “Lavi is American” story.)
Some people try to claim that the Lavi was all American financed. In fact, only 40% was American financed. The program costed 2.2 billion dollars when it was cancelled – no more than the development costs of other airplanes in the world in the Lavi’s class. In 1987 the US removed its share of the cost of Lavi project. Since development was near completion, the US made clear it will not participate in the cost of building 300 Lavis for the Israeli airforce. In other words, they let us bring the plane’s technology to maturity but killed the plane. Why? because they had a perfectly good idea that this plane could directly compete with their own F-16s and F-18s. Why would they finance a plane that will hurt their sales? everyone here agrees that it makes no sense. Israel alone couldn’t bear the cost of production of the Lavi. The project was also canelled due to the fragile political climate of Israel at the time, and was cancelled in the vote with 12 for and 11 against, with the 12th voice persuaded in the last minute as a political move.

Not only due to politics. There was also a huge pressure by the American aviation giants.
But what I meant in that post were internal politics in Israel, in which you obviously have no idea, but they are essential in order to understand the story of the Lavi project.

No, we simply couldn’t afford the money it took us to build any fighter plane on our on. Just as we can’t really buy large amounts of American made fighter jets without using the aid money. Once the Lavi was out of the aid package, it was made unaffordable for us.

Nonsense. The real reasons for the cancellation, at least the main ones, were already mentioned by me.

First of all, remember that the American pressure was eventually the fact that they took their 40% of development costs. On the other hand, we could have sold what we already got and they couldn’t do anything about it. Still, as Israel tends to do when it comes to arms deals, it was made under the table. That’s the reason both Israel and China denied it. For Israel, the risk of losing the aid is just too great to take against a single arms deal. Dening it is the easy way out of political mass.

Before recommeding reading material for us, read this web page first:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/lavi.html

I’m not speaking about respect towards this opinion of mine solely – I’m speaking about respect between people.
You are more than welcomed to disagree with me, but I didn’t appreciate the “shut up” part.

Even the Astra, Galaxy, G-150 and Arava were American/French?
Didn’t know that.
And the Lavi was American as much as the Gripen is American. Because of your nationalistic feelings I’m sure it’s easy to you to see the Gripen as Swedish with some American systems, but when it comes to the Lavi, and its J-10 connection, you refer to it as an American plane, while in both of the planes the use of foreign designed systems was similar.

Remeber that GD also claimed that we don’t have experience in building aircraft. So I brought these example. At least, it seems, you acknowledge that Israel produced quite a number of airplanes so far.
The Lavi is the Israeli experience is designing our technologically succesful fighter plane. Along with the Lavi, there was the Arye, which (except concept #33) was a paper lion, but gave the IAI experience in designing local airplanes.
As I already gave details before, the IAI’s transfer from the Kfir (a Mirage) to the Lavi (a new plane) was deeply routed in the Arye project. It took us over four decades of work to reach the point where we could have built our own fighter plane. While in the Chinese case, the J-10 is like a shining light in a sea of drakness – While China still produces mostly redesigns of Russian designed equipment, suddendly it came out with their own brand new 4th generation fighter plane. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible.
And before GD will pop up with the J-9, I’ll say this: Yes, China had and has tonnes of experience with fighter jets, they also designed a few of their own or made real changes in the Russian designs, such as with the J-8II. They knew very well what canard delta configuration is, but from that, to reaching a fourth generation fighter plane with delta canard configuration, years after the J-9 project was stopped, and while it bears physical similarity to the Lavi, and in the background there are always reports in the international aviation industry that the Lavi tech was transfered to China – You may believe what you will, but I think that it’s just too obvious than to be a coincidence.

Correction – the technological development of the plane was completed in 1991, when the Lavi’s radar development ended. What we couldn’t afford was the serial production of the plane. Also the US made it clear it will not permit any Lavi exports, as these included American technology, so it became uneconomical.

If to follow your logic, I already proved to you that the design of the Lavi was years before we got our F-16s – and yet you and GD continue to claim it’s based over the F-16.

The Lavi was not a modified F-16. Yet you still have some truth in what you say – the Lavi did included American technology that couldn’t have been transfered from Israel to China. The misssing of these technologies are the main reason for the redesign China had to put the plane through, and example for this is the engine – China had to replace the American engine of the Lavi with a russian engine (and that changed the intake and airframe).

Exactly. That’s the reason it was made under the table and with Israeli technology only. It doesn’t worth it.

That American official was more or less an idiot, because he knew nothing about aviation. The planes that took off in the time of the Lavi were the Gripen, the Rafale and the Eurofighter. They all originated from the 80s, but are they considered old today?

The term “military technologies” doesn’t rule out airframe design.

Erez i agree with you almost in everything, the Lavi was a successful fighter capable to win sales even in the export markets the americans knew it therefore the americans decided Israel should not built the Lavi, the Lavi technology was transfered to China that is also true, the Americans reported and as you said even Israeli sources did, Israel has the technology and capabilities to built jet fighters, what i do not understand is the fact that Israel sold technology that can end up in Israel`s enemies hands, the only reasonable answer is that the Lavi Technology will be obsolete by the time the F-22 enters service and Israel`s Python V missile technology coupled with the Israeli upgraded F-15s and F-16s make the Lavi airframe simply unnecesary so selling the Lavi was a good way of getting money.