Here is a good link golden dragon read it Me-109 shipped to Japan

LOL. Forget it, Strevitel.

Just read Rene Francillon’s definitive Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War.

All single engined fighters with inline powerplants looked alike but the Ki-61 had very little input from the Me109. Just take a look at the undercarriage. There was no Me109 specimen for Kawasaki to work off of. That sending of a Me109 to Kawasaki for the Ki-61 story you’re telling is spreading false information.

As far as learning from the Germans, the entire design philosophy of the Japanese and Germans were different. That is the one obvious fact of anyone who studied WWII aircraft.

Japanese used air-cooled radials and German used water-cooled inline engines. Japanese emphasized range and maneuverability and the German went after performance.

As for Japanese copying Germany by the time of the Komet and Me262 – by that point (1944) there was no contact between Japan and Germany except by submarines. What was passed between them were mostly prototypes.

As for Japan behind Germany and Italy. Italy being ahead of Japan at any point in WWII is pure idiocy. In fact, it could argued that by 1940, Japan was actually ahead of Germany with the Zero (which if was used in the Battle of Britain would have had enough range to escort Luftwaffe bombers to and from Britain instead of the 15 minutes combat time of the Me109 which left the He 111s and Ju 88s defenseless. The Me110s certainly didn’t help and needed escorting themselves.)

In specific fields such as naval aviation, Japan was arguably ahead of everyone in 1940. Even in things like reconnaissance planes, the Ki-46 was considered the best in its class in 1940.

Of course, there were lots of things that the Japanese made which sucked too (like the Germans they spent too much energy on too many new types and kept around too many old types that were past usefulness.)

Strevitel, just read up on the history of the Japanese industry before attempting to post sweeping terms regarding it.

The Germans indeed shipped a Me-109 to Japan that is a fact you are wrong

Flogger, you’re digging yourself deeper into the hole with an extreme lack of knowledge in this field.

First of all, the Kikka and J8M1 were prototype machines that has little no impact on the direction of the Japanese wartime aircraft industry which was extremely varied. So your statement that Japan used German-based designs before changing to American ones after WWII is against everything that anyone who’ve studied WWII Japan aviation believes in.

Secondly, the Ki-61 was a “copy” of the Me109?

That’s like saying the Aeronautica Macchi MC 205 was a Me109 because that used a German engine. Or that the P-51 was actually a Spitfire because it used a Merlin.

That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. Entirely idiotic.

the Germans shipped a Me-109 to Japan to help the Japanese in the design of the Ki-61.
Golden Dragon the Japanese, learnt from Europe and the US before embarking themselves in their own designs, at the beginig of the jet age Germany and Italy were more advanced that Japan so they copied the Germans i am not saying the Japanese lacked any designing capability
In fact the Campini Caproni CC2 was the first jet aircraft to be aknowledged internationaly as the first jet aircraft despite the He-178 was in reality the first but since it flew secretly it was not inmediately acknowledged as the first.

That pretty much destroys your credibility in knowing the Japanese aircraft industry, Flogger.

The Japanese had only one substantial design based on a German plane and that was the Ki-61, Japan’s only inline engine aircraft. Other than that Japan used radial engines in their aircraft while Germany used mainly inline.

Tell me, Flogger, each German plane the Zero, Tojo, Frank, George, Sally, Betty, Kate, Judy, Oscar and Jack were respectively based on. I basically named every major Japanese frontline machine I could think of.

Not really. There were no blueprints transferred. The Ne-20 was based on an earlier turbojet called the Ne-12. The BMW003 did help in when photos of it studied by the Japanese engineers working from the Ne-12 base. (1)

Come on, man, if you start a thread on the Japanese industry, you should at least know more about the industry you’re talking about.

——————————————————————
Notes:
(1)http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/kikka.html
“Initially, the [Kikka] was to be powered by a pair of 441 lb.s.t. Tsu-11 Campini-type engines, but these were soon replaced by two 750 lb.s.t. Japanese-designed Ne-12 turbojets. However, the Ne-12 failed to deliver the expected thrust, and official interest in the Kikka began to wane because it appeared that it would be unable to meet its performance requirements.

However, In the meantime, photographs of the German BMW 003 axial-flow turbojet had been obtained, and the Japanese were able to use these photos to assist them in designing a similar turbojet (designated Ne-20) rated at 1047 lb.s.t. It was decided to switch the Kikka to the Ne-20, and since it now appeared that the performance requirements could be met after all, the project moved forward with greater rapidity.”

You know this jet the J8M1 is not a german aircraft?

look at the Me-163/J8M1 what you are just denying is the fact that Germany helped with the BMW003 to develop the Kikka

Yeah, some Japanese military industries are among the world’s largest… [b]in cars and consumer electronics.[/color] The fact that Mitsubishi sells minivans across the world, and Kawasaki makes really fast motorcycles has nothing to do with their desparate state-overfunded defence branches. Japan’s defence industry is by far the least competetive in the world (if you really want to waste money, you should buy an UH-1J rather than one and a half Blackhawk), no matter what you like to believe. And it’s not that building aircraft under license means anything. Unless you’re equally impressed by Swiss F-5 production.

So what?

Don’t bull$hit. Japan doesn’t outsource, Boeing does. The design charge is with Boeing.

Well, would you expect Boeing to outsource that to Airbus? Neither would i.

So what? Being for 23% part of an international consortium led by RR and PW, together with MTU doesn’t really strike me as Japan being an independent player on the world’s aviation market.

We have seen that Japan has the ability to design commercial aircraft, with the YS-11 and to some extent the C-1. Now if you think either one of those was anywhere close to a true commercial succes, you could do with some factchecking. The YS-11 made it because of Japan’s variants of Aeroflot, not because of commercial competition.

Thanks for the C-X and P-X mockup photo, by the way. I hadn’t seen those before.

The Japanese leadership in carbon-fiber composites and the fact they have the machinery and tooling for such process and technologies allow them to outsource to China, Boeing does not have such technologies and they want to use the japanese expertise in that area in order to save time in R&D as well as money .
Japan forms part of several aircraft program as a partner undoubtly Japan has not leadered an aircraft program in several decades but they also have design in fact the used some new technologies in the F-2

The large number of C-X and P-X means they are planning to design and consolidate the capability to build jet airlines by their own.
The Boeing 878 and B-777 show clearly the japanese comitment and willingness despite they are minoritary partners in the Boeing 787 to keep a powerful design capability 200+ F-15J show the true muscles of Japan`s aerospace capabilities

u got that rite, pal.

the f-2 is as expensive as a freakin typhoon or f-22. while providing possibly below-j-10 performance. and anyhow, why do u want to spend so much money to soap up a design that is due for retirement in 2020 is a wonder to me.

(not that f-35 is that great either. a replacement aircraft that is actually worse than the aircraft its intended to replace.)

if i was the Ministry of Industry etc. i would have asked for a license of rafale or j-10. makes much better sense.

i think the japanese ultimately have to solve the problem fo production costs. its simply ridiculous.they seem to do pretty well on cars, y cant they be efficient on planes.

The Japanese have been quit smart in adapting and adquiring tech transfers keeping their aerospace industry alive, the new C-X and P-X jet aircraft already have been presented as mock ups and due to fly in less than 5 years time will be built in large numbers.

The reality the Japanese make money in aviation through programs such as the Boeing B-767 that japanese companies built up to 15% of it or in the case of the Boeing B-777 that that percentage is higher up to 21% of the B-777 is built by japanese companies even the wing sections of the Embraer 170s are built by Mitsubishi

In the case of the 7E7 up to 35% of it will be built by the japanese subcontractors that work for Boeing, the true asian hand in the 787 is Japan that is building it

Also the IAE V2530-A5 engine that powers the Airbus A-320 has japanese participation

The F-1/T-2 might be inferior to the Jaguar or the F-2 more expensive than several F-16 but that technology has allowed japan to remain competitive in the civil arena.