It is still amazing to me, how this little episode in history still catches so much attention and how people try to bend it to a considerable success of Yugoslavian (or better: Serbian) military. Even more strange, make it a success of Russian military equipment over crappy American technology.

Nothing is harder to digest than an obvious defeat due to own (political) stupidity. The person mainly responsible is dead, not a big loss for civilized Europe, hopefully this attitude dies out pretty soon, too.

If I park my tank under a tree and turn-off the engine, there is simply no way in detecting it. This tank adds no additional capability to my army. When I turn on the engine, I am detectable.
Having wasted multi-million dollar missiles doesn’t hurt too bad,
– if they gonna be outdated in a few years anyway
– if there overall cost is a infinite small fraction of your income
– if a crappy truck is relatively more expensive to Serbia than the multi-million dollar missile to NATO
– if after all demonstrated that I can hit anywhere anytime.

War is about competing resources. In this respect with Yoguslavia economically as powerful as Delaware there was little point in fighting it out. Unfortunately Mister Milosevic didn’t attend the lesson about basic principles of war fighting. His people had to pay it, in cash, assets and lifes. I’ll hope they know who to thank.

Shorsch

Is not what you are saying what many claim here, no one is claiming russian technology is superior to the Western one.

What i am claiming is in any historical battle there are losses by both sides and there is a propaganda war fought in the media, both sides claim kills and losses in air combat. what we are trying to guess is how accurate are the claims of both sides

The Serbs to my humble opinion were quit proffesional and well trained, each part involved is interested in make believe the public it`s version, it is hard to believe the surgical and over deflated NATO losses or believe they do not claim fabricated accounts, same is with the Serbians, i do not believe any side has told the truth because both accounst are different, but i know they know what really happened and perhaps once time passes we will see a more accurate version that will be closer to what really did hapen.

Flogger, I’m talking about blatant propaganda as used as a tool by the Yugoslav Ministry of Information during the conflict. They embellished combat reports resulting in claims of Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots shooting down NATO aircraft. These claims still exist today as you found out in Russian military press. The Russians are not lying, but simply re-telling tales from the conflict that they beleive happened. Milo’s own advisors even revealed the extent that those claims went to. The claims went to the fantastic of several F-117s downed, B-52s, B-2s aircrew as PWs, Luftwaffe F-4s shot down with pilots killed and captured and it spiralled completely out of control. Seven years later and you yourself are still falling for those blatant outrageous claims made at the time. You even try to label them as “claims by Historians”.

I pose you a question. If NATO lost scores of airframes then why haven’t they publically acknowledged that those aircraft were lost in accidents in the Balkans? Scores of combat lost airframes could simply be written off as war-time accidents. Flogger you would be happy and you could post your roll-eyes comments of “another accident”. So do you now believe that accidents are being covered up?

For example you believe that an F-15 was lost in the Balkans. Can you provide the serial number for this F-15? Why didn’t NATO just say that it was an accident to cover up the combat loss? Flogger which airframe from that period is missing today from the inventory?

Over to you Flogger. You are still talking in riddles and providing me and this thread with nothing but hearsay. Take a break. Do some detailed research into serials and the world of aircraft spotting enthusiasts. Use the contacts that I have supplied you and clarify things in your own mind instead of dragging up fantasy MiG-29 pilots and stories written by Yugoslav Ministry of Information ghost writers. You really need to quantify blatant fabricated stories and tales from reality and simply stop passing them off as “some historians believe”

TEEJ

First i do not live in any fantasy world, what happens is i do not accept one sided History, You complaign as propaganda if officially the Serbs claim other scores but you won`t claim US or NATO claims as Propaganda.

Any war has the same problems, for example can you give me the serials of the two Su-22 and one MiG-23 that Col Rick Parson., Cap David rose and Cap Murphy shot down in GWI?

Do you have the serials number for the MiG-29 and MiG-23 Cesar Rodrigez shot down in GWI? Do you have any picture of the MiGs or Sukhois shot down by those pilots

The reality TEEJ, verify kills is a hard task, i wonder if you can prove with a picture all NATO`s claims you are supporting or all their serials can you? :rolleyes:

What you are asking is a picture and a Serial for a Kill, sadly that is hardly proven by any warring faction, you end up having different accounts.

Also there are denials by both sides, the best you can do is gather all claims and you can prove a few of many kills claimed.

Many nations claim accidents wrote off their military aircraft in war.

There is a very famous F-16 kill that also is claimed as a fraticide who is saying the true?

In few words what i am not saying NATO`s air to air kills are always a lie it does not mean they always say the true, specially if we demand a picture and a serial for each aircraft they have shot down

there are only 2 shoot downs of the planes it is 1 f-1117 and one f-16C thats it 😮 and there are only 2 planes shot down and i dont know were u are getting it but i could only fine 2 photos of the planes shot down.

The question is How many pictures you can get from the MiG-29s shot down by F-15, F-16s and Su-27? and by that i mean good pictures where is obvious the kill.

I have seen like 3 pictures where you see evidence clearly of a MiG-29 shot down and one that is not clear can be a any aircraft.

There rest are basicly claims.

The MiG-29 have also claims some are even other MiG-29s shot down by MiG-29s, some are Panavia Tornadoes, Su-27s, Su-22s, MiG-21s, (F-117 let`s forget for a minute this one) and MiG-23BNs, a claimed F-15 in the Balkans and so on.
Here is a Russian news paper claiming only one MiG-29 was lost by Eritrea
Eritrean MiG-29 shot down
The list is longer than acknolewdeged
from http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/downedmig29.htm

and

Flogger it was Col Dani Zoltan who received the medal from Milosevic. Why is there no record of the 127th LAE receiving a national award when the 250th Rocket Brigade received an award? Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots also received bravery awards and promotions for bravery such as Peric, Milutinovic, Arizanov, Nikolic and Illic.

In similar fashion to a Russian media claims of a MiG-29 they also got it wrong on the SAM that shot down 82-806.

“ITAR-TASS reports that Russian Defence Minister Igor Sergeyev had
stated that a Russian-made KUB system (NATO SA-6 ‘Gainful’) had been
responsible for the destruction of an American F-117 stealth fighter
over Yugoslavia. ITAR-TASS, 29 March 1999. “

TEEJ

Honestly let`s do this i do feel bored by the discussion, specially the western links you give me, or the personal so called witness proof, i won`t addmit it to tell you the truth as evidence only official evidence from Serbia if they Say we did not shot down a F-117 with a MiG-29 and if they say Officiallly we shot down only two aircraft, you have not provided it to me, i have not evidence too so let`s do this when i have more evidence i will re-open the subject to you in the meantime we are already in a loop and that is quit boring to me.

Official Serbian acknowledgement proves totally and utterly any claim, if it is written in a Serbian official link such as the Serbian Ministry of Defence or Air force it proves your point, unless they say otherwise i feel is useless as a historical point of view of an one sided History, Serbia also has it`s version and the right to tell it too.

Regards

Think how many sorties were flown during that period. You bring as evidence a crashed SFOR OH-58. Just what do you think an OH-58 was doing flying a combat mission into Serbia? The US didn’t even allow AH-64s into combat ops, so what do your think they were they doing with an SFOR marked OH-58?

When the AH-64s went down in Albania the Serb media and other ran numerous stories of Serb SF sniper teams taking them out and claims of Serbs with MANPADS. They even had claims of the Serb Air Force flying raids against Rinas destroying numerous other Apaches.

The AV-8B was pilot error. The pilot received an endorsement due to his error.

Even the Yugoslav Air Force suffered accidents with their MiG-29s. Major Tesanovic stalled his MiG-29 on the 26th March 1999 on approach to landing. He successfully ejected.

Aircraft during Allied Force are no different to any other intense period of operations. Aircraft, just as in peacetime, suffer from all sorts of mechanical problems resulting in in-flight emergencies. You’ll find the same in any air force. Think of the intense training and combat ops going on in that period alone. Thousands of sorties undertaken and aircraft did suffer in-flight emergencies. For example the F-15C that sat down at Tuzla along with his wingman while on a CAP over Bosnia.

At one point the mad Serb media were trying to link US aircraft crashes during this period with reported crashes all over the world!

The type of reports from 1999:

‘Radio Toronto recently reported the crash of a NATO aircraft ‘in Israel’ (!?), when the pilot and ’22 parachuters’ were killed. Allegedly, those were amateur parachuters who had come from America to train for some sort of a championship. The news would have been swallowed if only 72 hours earlier the news had not leaked on the crash of a helicopter ‘in Japan’ (three killed), then another crash of F-15 over ‘Puerto Rico’ (one killed), then new helicopter accidents ‘in Kentucky’ (eleven killed) and Arizona (12 killed). The only connection to Kosovo was made by an American TV reporter when she was talking about the ‘Kentucky’ accident, but it was only said that they had been ‘training’ for their September schedule in this Serbian province. However, even the laymen know that these fabricated reports are only the attempts for creating such a situation, suitable for sending messages to the hundreds of families about “tragic losses during military drills”. Even the tragic-comic comments have been heard that CNN and other spokesmen of the alliance could launch the news that “three newly-trained pilots” have died. NATO knows very well that four F-4 aircraft of the German Airforce did not come back from this monstrous mission over Yugoslavia. According to the information of the Russian Ministry of Defence, one two-men crew died when the aircraft exploded in the air, while other three crews were found and captured by the Yugoslav Army. In the air combat on March 26, seven kilometers to the South of Pancevo, a Yugoslav MIG-29 downed an American F-16C, whereas another four bombers of the same type were downed by the Yugoslav anti-aircraft defence. Two Canadian F/A-18C were shot down and destroyed together with their pilots 11 kilometers to the South of Ruma, and because of that the American northern neighbour sent additional aircraft to Italy on March 30. Yugoslav MIG-21 managed to blow up an American two-seater F-15E on March 27, which the BBC reported the same day. At least one “Tornado IDS” was downed between March 24 and 26. This two-seater was completely blown up in the sky on the South of Pancevo. Another German “Tornado” was downed on March 29, but the pilot managed to eject himself. According to Yugoslav and Russian sources, one British “Harrier” was down on March 30, and another one on April 17. A large group of multi-purpose fighter aircraft found themselves in the cross fire of the light anti-aircraft artillery and had to leave the Yugoslav sky with lots of damage. On April 15, agencies reported about the sad end of so-called “Warthog”, American specialized fighter aircraft for anti-tank fighting A-10A. The greatest success of the Yugoslav Army is definitely, demystification of the carefully kept secret of the “Stealth” technology. The invisible fighter F-117A was shot down into the plough-lands of the village of Budjanovci, hit by the earth-to-air missile. Soon after that, Radio Zagreb reported the forced landing of another Stealth aircraft at the Zagreb airport. According to Reuters, and some other media houses, there is a real possibility that even a third “invisible” aircraft faced a similar sad destiny. On April 6, an aircraft
which bombarded the oil refinery in Novi Sad that night, was shot down above Fruska Gora mountain early in the morning. NATO did not have better luck in its helicopter missions, in which a large number of commandos lost their lives. One HH60-G helicopter with two pilots and 12 commandos came down between Bijeljina and Tuzla on March 28, and only a day later, the same destiny hit another two helicopters of similar type. According to Russian
sources, a NATO aircraft and two CH-53/53E helicopters were shot down at
about 200 kilometers to the South-West from Belgrade, on April 2, with 58
CREW members, who are all believed to have died in the accident. The
Yugoslav air defence shot down a considerable number of aircraft, not
identified yet, so that the list of the dead aggressor’s soldiers is not
final yet. In any case, it is becoming bigger and bigger every day in this
aggression on Yugoslavia. Therefore, it no wonder there is a panicky fear
of NATO from facing the families of the dead soldiers and ridiculous
attempts to hide the truth.’

Accident another accident yeah yeah and that is not propaganda? :rolleyes:

You guys are getting just a bit carried away and I mean debaters from both camps.

————

*There are 2 verifed shot down aircraft. 1 x F-117 and 1 X F-16

*Several more (no one knows exactly how many) were damaged.

*The Serbs during the conflict made exagerated claims…so did Nato!

————-

Nobody from Serbia made an official claim of “hundreds” of shot down aircraft.
What you’re reffering to is media hysteria and propaganda.

At the end of the war (1999), the commander of the PVO said that 60 + aircraft have been shot down.

Last year (2005) there was a official revision made and the number has been reduced to 38 aircraft that have been HIT by a SAM (a SAM connecting with a target on the radar screen)….* not shot down *.

The number has been reduced to 38, after a revision of the data and some of the targets hit are believed to have been decoys. There is independent evidence of at least some Nato aircraft making emergency landings in neighbouring states

Now for the sake of argument, it’s more than likely that some of the damaged aircraft did crash on the way back to base.

SOC

Here is a number said for one member

And the address for the Serbian webpage is…?

Check first the ministry of defence i do not remember now the page but if you google you can find the Serbian ministry of defence give me some time i will google it for you Serbian minstry of defence