FloggerDo you have data for Climb rate, turn rates, Acceleration from Mach 0.4 to Mach 1.2, turn around time from airbase, RCS, Maximum speed with AAMS and EW suites for Both Su-35 and FC-1. If you don’t have the figures so dont bother to reply.
PS. Su-30MKI climb rate of 230m/s and top speed of Mach 1.9 is not impressive either and TWR is worse than even F-16 and you are comparing this nonsense to F-22.
Can the FC-1 do this? does the FC-1 have a rear facing radar? can the Fc-1 fire a missile reawards as the Su-30MKI? look at the picture and you will see the Su-30MKI launching a missile rearwards.
The Su-30MKI can carry more missiles give them better detection range and has a superior agility the FC-1 is no more than a modernized F-20 but the Su-30MKI is the Top fighter in the whole of Asia also the Su-30MKi is a two seater giving an extra pair of eyes, the Su-30 is the Russian super Tomcat
FloggerAnd what makes you think that the FC-1 cannot take advantage of future AAMs too? And the FC-1 will have French-Italian avionics, you’re talking about radars in the caliber of the APG-66 MLU and the Thales RDY to better.
The F-15 and F-14 has shown they can be shotdown by F-5s and A-4s in Aggressor training exercises. The more the bigger jet is involved in WVR, the more likely it can be shot down. Note that the F-5s and the A-4s do not have BVR. Small jets with BVRAAMs and HMS supported by AWACS and datalinking can be frightening if faced in numbers. Try the JAS-39 Gripen. That small jet can also carry the Meteor.
the americans always sold F-14 or F-15 to only trusted allies but F-5s to anyone specially satellites tell me why?
The FC-1 and JAS-39 can carry BVRAAMs but how many? and the FC-1 does it have Meteor? the Su-30MKI is better and the F-15 shoot down F-5s with easy if you exploits it`s perfomance and a well flown F-15 will always shoot down a well flown F-5
FloggerNo pilot are inexpert, and planes do not operate as strays. But even with expert pilots, smaller planes are still harder to eyeball. And this argument is about big jet vs. small jet, so the LCAs, MiG-29s, M2000 and AWACS do not count. The argument does not change if this is the LCA vs. MKI, or F-CK-1 vs. MKK, or J-10 vs. J-11.
harder but not invisible, and the Su-30MKI for such a reason has an IRST and it`s size is not of a Airbus 340 😀 and speed also counts when you trying to locate some thing in the air and the Su-30MKI is faster for at least 600km at full speed.
The FC-1 has very few advantages and none is of definitive importance, the Su-30MKI better radar and avionics will simply erease any advantage enjoy by the FC-1 size, and in AAM the new generation of ASTRA and R-77 Ramjet version will erease them further
also the F-15 versus A-4 or F-5s can defeat them with ease it is a myth that that nimble fighters are better just by size, the F-15 has shown since 1974 that it ruled the rooster by numbers not by size and the Su-30MKI has better numbers than the FC-1, the F-15 has a appalling kill rate versus the F-5 that if we recalled you will se that the F-15 size did not helped the F-5 to shoot down F-15s at all
FloggerBut an FC-1 is also quite an agile jet. Even among its first flights, it was already doing loops and rolls, not just feeling the flight system but pushing to the edge.
The PLAAF has shown that even a J-7E can take down an Su-27 in a dogfight. First sight, luck, position and pilot skill will determine the outcome of a dogfight with as much chances as agility and maneuverability. Small jets do have certain advantage—they are harder to eyeball, much easier to fall out of sight. They have excellent transient performance over larger planes, moving from one energy or turn state to another—the undefinable quality called “nimbleness”. The old A-4 Skyhawk was unmatched in transient performance for example.
if you argument indeed has some truth, you are gambling that the Su-30MKI pilot will be an inexpert flyer and he won`t see the FC-1 approaching, that is just gambling, playing the odds and expecting that you won`t be seen, too much of a risk and too much expectation on luck, the Su-30MKI working with LCAs, MIG-29s, Mirage 2000 and AWACs can easily shot down any stray FC-1 or located them, only the F-35 can hide and kill them with a major degree of impunity and without counting on luck as a FC-1 pilot wil need
FloggerIn a dogfight, there is always no sure outcome. Obsolete planes by a generation or two has shot down planes before in a dogfight. Planes that are less maneuverable than the other has also shot down planes that are more agile.
The basics of winning in WVR is one rule first, and it is in a word in WVR—“visual”. The guy who sees the other guy first will have at least one decisive advantage.
Then there is position, pure pilot skill, and then sheer luck.
Even in the PLAAF, there are guys there who can take a J-7E or J-7G, then successfully and repeatedly tear up the hotshots flying the Su-27s, J-11s and Su-30MKKs.
A F-4 versus MiG-19 well that argument is believeable, Su-30MKI versus FC-1 well the Su-30MKI is more agile, the Su-35 is not a clumsy and lumbering F-4.
An the FC-1 not more maneuvrable than the Su-35 or even equal.
The Su-35 flown by a bad pilot well that is possible but the odds the FC-1 always will face badly trained pilots is not the rule also modern fighters specially the Su-30MKI of India are excellent even better than the Chinese or Russian Su-30 in situational awareness
Chinese air to air missiles
Flogger> even if the SD-10 is little bit better in performance.
definitive conclusions about is performance wont be known for
many years yet. the CIA will get first dibs if the PAF obtains it 😉until then its all speculation and statements by the makers
themselves, not unbiased 3rd party review based on released
and trusted information.
I think the SD-10 might be better than the AA-12 Adder as quoted by the Chinese, the AA-12 is an old AAM, the Russians will field a new generation of AAMs in the coming years and also India has it`s own AMRAAM equivalent.
So the FC-1 is not going to be superoir when the Indian Astra AAM arrives or the R-77 ramjet come to light
In the picture the Astra, the Indian AMRAAM, SD-10 and AA-12 Adder equivalent let`s remember that the SD-10 also is a new AAM just in the procees of starting mass production and the Astra has just begun fight test but both AAM can be considered in the same generation
FloggerWhere you get the agility figures of FC-1 that you are proclaiming that there is wide difference in agility between Su-35 and FC-1? Either backup your statement with evidence or retract it now.and what do you think about air to air weoponary of FC-1. FC-1 will use BVR and WVR which are either superior or atleast equal to any Russian weopons on Su-35 thats for sure.
Lets start for agility, The Su-35 is considered more agile than the F-22 or at least not far behind can you say the same for the FC-1? answer no one can say that the FC-1 can be compared to the Su-30MKI in agility, what about speed? no, it can not be compared, the Su-35 is superior. What about avionics? the Su-30MKI is superior with an excellent combination of Israeli, French, Indian and Russian avionics, armament also the warload is bigger so it is superior.
Now if you say the FC-1 can carry SD-10 well the speed is important, the Su-37 since it is faster gives better performance to the Alamo and Adder even if the SD-10 is little bit better in performance.
In conclusion the only thing better in the FC-1 is the SD-10 but due to lower performance it is nothing of a big advantage specailly if the Su-30MKI is armed with 11 AAMs still having a good range and supported by AWACs that in the Chinese or Pakistani case are not as good as the Indian ones.
Now compare the FC-1 versus the F-35 and the FC-1 is obsolete in few words uncapable to fight it and the F-22 is even better so the FC-1 has no chances in a high tech enviroment.
The FC-1 is like the AMX, just a designig exercise for Pakistan as the AMX was for Brazil and a Cheaper answer for China as the AMX was for italy that also had Tornados but needed a cheaper complement to the Tornado IDS in the form of the AMX.
FloggerHmm..I don’t know about you but I can see the Chinese are rapidly progressing, not just in the narrow confines of military technology but also in the global arena of economics, and politics. They are affecting the global prices for natural resources, and oil, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Napoleon once said, Let the dragon sleep because when it awakens, it will shake the world. I think the dragon has awoken, yes? The world is beginning to notice the ground shake.
It should be evident to you too that China today is definitely not the China of 10 years ago. Regarding military technology, they’ve broken through some technological barrier or door that has hindered them. But no more. With this newly attained know-how or maturity, they’ve come through to the other side and are closing in on the tremendous gap with their western adversaries.
I don’t think Russia is ahead of China anymore. China has effectively mastered all that Russia could have taught them. They are working aggressively to undo the European embargo. And if that happens, watch out. Because then China, armed with cutting edge western technology will progress even more.
These are interesting times to live in. It’ll be fun to see how much further China can go.
undoutedly China will become the new superpower in military terms, capable to conquest what once only the Mongol empire did, surpass even Russia, lead Asia but if you go to Prophecies Israel will defeat them.
FloggerThe F-22 is in a different generational league from the FC-1 altogether. Let’s come up with a theoritical small fighter with the same tech level as the F-22. Let’s call it the F-40. The F-40 uses a single GE-F414 engine (22,000lbs thrust), and has about the same size and weight as the FC-1 (or the single seater Korean A-50). The jet will have extensive RCS reduction measures.
The problem of the F-22 is that it spends so much effort hiding from an enemy it does not spend an equal amount of effort trying to find an equally stealthy opponent. When you have equally stealthy opponents, chances are your inborne fighter radar will not be able to detect stealthy opponents at long range. Rather, you have to rely on AWACS or surface radar with long metric frequencies to detect the target and vector yourself closer. However, the F-40 can do the same, using external sources to scan for the F-22 and vector towards it. If you use your search radar, you literally give yourself away.
Chances are both fighters will end up being in close range at each other, either engaging with WVR missiles or snapshooting BVR missiles at close ranges. When you’re close, the smaller fighter has an advantage of being more difficult to eyeball than the larger jet. It also favors the side with the greater number. The guy who lights up his afterburners first to use his speed will also be the first beacon for any IR AAM to lock at. The situation for the smaller fighter would even be favored more if helmet sighting systems are used, which when combined with the next generation IR AAMs, would be literally be who gets to eyeball his target first, wins.
The F-22 versus the low tech FC-1 shows how much the FC-1 is an obsolete fighter despite it can be built in larger numbers, comparing the Su-35 versus the FC-1 seems like a Pakistan versus India face off, the F-35 still is quit superior to the FC-1 it will hide and fight the FC-1 just by virtue of stealth and it will defeat the FC-1 with ease, light weight fighters without no technical advantages are crap, a fair F-22 light weight fighter challenger is only seen in the F-35 or in the PAK FA from Russia.
Hordes of FC-1 versus SAMs, AWACS and stealthy F-22 or F-35 will repeat the american results of gulf war I, even the J-10 or JAS-39 can not fight F-22, F-35, AWACs and SAMs altogather since the americans can use the F-16 upgraded to the Israelie or Greek latest standards and you will see that such combination will make obsolete and cannon fodder any of those fighters such as the FC-1 or JAS-39s
let`s remeber that according to computer simulations the F-22 will shoot down 9 Su-35 per F-22 lost, the FC-1 is technically inferior to the Su-30MKI and Su-35 by a great margin in agility and weaponry so the american perhaps can shot down 20 FC-1 per F-22 lost
FloggerI did a mini comparison
Jet Comparison FC-1 vs Su-35(Light vs Heavy), so for every 2 FC-1s you get an Su-35 approximately
-2 FC-1s will generate more missions
-Su-35 should be cheaper to service 1)It will carry more fuel than 2 FC-1s BUT for a much bigger range 2)less maintenance technicians and pilots are required.
-Su-35’s total payload will be bigger by 400kg than of two FC-1s in total(8000kg vs 7600kg of two FC-1s)
-Su-35 will carry the same payload as 2 FC-1s but over a bigger range
-adding tankers/more airfields(scattered) to 2 FC-1s will be a lot more expensive
-giving FC-1s 3 fuel tanks for same range as Su-35 will leave the 2 FC-1s with 2 hardpoints each(4 in total, excluding wingtips, 14-4 wingtips-6 fuel tanks=4), while Su-35 will have in total 12 hardpoints excluding wingtips(If it takes Mig-29SMT 3 fuel tanks to have same range as Su-35 then it should not take FC-1 any less). These fuel tanks will also give FC-1 lower speed.
-Su-35’s bigger radar is a bigger advantage in every mode(Anti-Shipping, A2A, A2G, etc). However adding GCI/AWACS/Ground Surveillance Platforms to 2 FC-1s will take that advantage away but it will add extra costs to GCI/AWACS/Ground Surveillance Platforms, so really it is not profitable because these are very expensive with exception of probably GCI but still Ground Surveillance platforms will cost.
-Su-35’s large radar also will allow it to target targets at much longer ranges, and would be able to guide longer ranged BVRAAMs like R-37 which FC-1 cannot really do without AWACS which would of course add many costs.So really, most of the advantages go to Su-35 in terms of performance and many other factors as well as costs, however FC-1s will only generate more missions.
why compare the Su-35 versus the FC-1? lets compare the F-22 versus the FC-1 or the FC-1 versus the F-35, because the americans are god example of expensive light and heavy weight fighters versus cheap crapy jets like the FC-1 that are completly obsolete versus F-35, F-22, Rafale, Eurofighters or even Su-30MKIs
A F-22 armed with Meteor will shoot down as many FC-1 as any enemy can scramble at them, the F-35 wil do it also but in a lesser way, a Eurofighter will do the same with Meteor, AIM-9X and IRIST AAMs no way a less agile fighter such as the FC-1 can compete, the J-10 or JAS-39 are easy to face just deploy lagre numbers of F-16Is or F-15Is and you have a good defence
FloggerMexican ERJ-145
Flogger:p
Tornados, Mitsubishi F-1’s, Jaguars, and all arguments of superiority aside; and,
without appearing as if bragging; let’s put it simply this way: It (FBC-1’s) does to potential targets
what the French subsonic Super Etantard did to its targets in the Falklands :rolleyes: …With “quantitative“, qualitative, and relatively “competitive” interceptors
and dog fighters to boot (J-7 G’s/MG’s/E’s, etc., as air support to keep the competition’s defenses busy),
the FBC-1/JH-7’s, too, can skim in low and release their load when on-target 😮 .And that, friends, I’m sure, is Kim Jong Il’s greatest concern 😀
:p
JH-7A pilots, the latest incarnation of the FBC-1 and some JH-7 scort fighters, a futuristic chinese F-22 class fighter and some J-8II
FloggerJH-7
FloggerFBC-1 and some J-8IIs
The Panavia Tornado has similar max weight and similar thrust to weight ratio to the FBC-1 but is faster thanks to it`s VG wing, the Spey 202MK and it`s chinese license built version the WP-9 are even more powerful than the Tornado`s Turbo-Union R-199 of a much lesser yield of 7493kg of thrust at afterburner but the VG wing once swept has it`s benefits 😉 and the Panavia Tornado uses it as a way to reduce drag in a similar case to the F-15/F-14 case, the Tornado surpasses the FBC-1 higher drag/higher thrust design by just swinging it`s wing
FloggerJH-7
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