this a J10 thread.not russian missile.here a J10 what look liked a actual J10 production model.notice the probes and attena
I agree 100% is not about the LCA or Surface to air missiles but about the J-10
In AFM October 2004 (just received) p 13
“Chile Acquires ex-SAAF Cheetahs”
5 Es were bought for spare source to Pantera and 7 more are possible.
Cool news for Latin america ๐
On the pictures Peruvian combat aircraft amd Mexican Mi-8s and Mi-2 helicopters and an old picture of Juan Guillermo Villasana the first aviatior in latin America with his own creation the Latin America airplane
You enfasize techonology transfer more than I do. If one thinks in the long term you are probably right ๐ . We can start another thread wondering which planes/countries would be of more help to our nations ๐ .
I agree ๐ i like to enfasize the fact that Brazil is the only nation in Latin America that has in Modern times decided to build a foreign advanced combat aircraft under license, Historically from 1910 to 1930 some nations in latin America built aircraft under license this is not the first time in Brazil has built a foreign jet aircraft under license, the Xavantes have a long History, in fact it is not new, Chile built the C-101 Aviocar but the most important is how to develope more your own industry.
Latin Americahas had great aviation pioneers, and if nations as Mexico or Argentina would had followed Brazil`s approach to aviation in Latin America Mexico and Argentina would be better but Mexican and Argentine political mistakes and US pressure destroyed the Mexican and Argentina`s Aircraft Industry. Brazil in this moment is far away of that danger Thankfully for all in Latin America but as at this moment the second best latin American aircraft industry is in Chile.
Mexico, Colombia, Chile and Argentina also have built domestic aircraft but the success of Brazil has been technology transfer and industrial cooperation a really succesful approach that has made EMBRAER what is today, and is imperative Brazil continues developing and becoming a stronger nation because it is inspiring other Latin American nations such as Mexico that almost killed completly it`s own aircraft industry into follow Brazil smart and bold approach and it might revive Argentina`s aircraft industry that has been a great example for all of us in Latin America
So we have almost the same opinion ๐ .
Anyway, I really think that the Mirage is not the best option. Could it makes money for EMBRAER? Not that much. Could it be a significantlly techonological add to EMBRAER know-how? I very much doubt it. The new fighter will be in service for the next 30 years. How many updates an airframe already 40 years old can take during this time?
My point is simple: Brasil should get the best aircraft. For best I understand not the more capable today, but an airframe which has the best potential to be continuosly updated for decades.
The best is the Su-35 Flanker but what i think Brazil as Argentina, Chile and Mexico really need is the best Technology transfer because even if the Mirage 2000 helps Brazil to buid a domestic jet in 20 years or the Su-35 develope a kind of Brazilian J-11, the technology transfer is the most important aspect of the whole deal, Brazil can buy IAI Kfir C10 or even some MiG-29 or Su-27 and can have the best air force in South America but what Brazil really needs is be self sufficient because a nation without it`s own weapons is vulnerable to embargos and in time of war or especifically an agression by other nation. an Embargo is the difference between victory or defeat and for the same reason Israel designed the IAI Kfir from the Mirage V that France once promised but later retained,
for the same reason Mexico signed an agreement with Russia for the Mil Mi-8 Hip plants in Mexico since that is the only way Mexico will catch up with Brazil but as the Chilean C-101 Aviojet deal everthing will depend if Brazil, Mexico or Chile the only nations building under license aircraft in Latin America can use that technology to design their own aircraft. as China has done very succesfully with Russian, Israeli and European designs.
on the Pictures Argentian fighters some are old pictures
Chinese aircraft
Kfir C-10
Hmmm… I know which magazine it is !I used to buy it but gave up of it on the second edition when the part about Brazil was heavily politiced as if our airforce was the crapiest of all LA ones ( Im talking about the middle 90’s edition one when Peru hadnt the Mig29 and venezuelan F16’s used only AIM9) .
Brazil`s air Force is good regarding military industry, is the best in domestic technology no doubt about it, but what respects it`s fighter fleet is not the best up to now, in AWACS capability the best in what regards domestic equipment but Mexico and Chile are quit matched to the FAB and in attack Peru is far ahead in capability but not in domestic production since Peru has no Aircraft industry but unless the Su-35 is chosen it will be still a second best because Chile and Peru are ruling the rooster but in reality Brazil has the best Air Force because it will build it`s own equipment and only Chile, Argentina and Mexico are trying to catch up with Brazil the true power in aerospace in latin America and at the Bottom we see an ERJ-145 of Aerolitoral an Airliner from Mexico which flies Brazilian Made ERJ-145 and the first Guatemalan designed and Built Aircraft. Brazil despite is a Superpower in civil aerospace is not in the military sector a true big player in that Russia, Taiwan, Iran, South Korea, South Africa, Israel, China and India are still ahead of Brazil however Brazil is making the bucks that those other emerging nations are spending in tax revenue buying military stuff and with the exception of Russia and Israel none is a real big exporter of weapons
. .the bottom picture is a the first aircraft ever built in Guatemala
“MiG-29`s instant turn rate 28 deg/s”
Which speed, height, weight????
“Eurofighter as capable as the MiG-29 not better”
Which source for such a statement????
Sources Jon Lake`s boook MiG-29 and Yefim Gordom`s MiG-29 claimed that the MiG-29 has a maximun instantaneous turn rate of 28 deg/sec, at what speed? i do not have the corner velocity but i do not remmeber if in one of those books is mentioned,
Yefim Gordom Mentioned in his Book MiG-29 and Andrei Fomin in his work Su-27 lower figures for the Eurofighter.
Now if the Russian claimed for the Eurofighter figures nota as good why the J-10 that has less thrust to weight ratio and no supercruise will beat the Eurofighter, MiG-29 and Su-27.
According to Gordom:
The MiG-29SE with 50% of fuel has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.52 (Eurofighter 1.30) and a sustained turn rate of 23.5 deg/sec (Eurofighter 22deg/sec) an initial rate of climb of 330 m/s so i hardly beleive a single engine J-10 will beat the twin engines of the MiG-29 and Eurofighter
the MiG-29SE at take off has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.08 but the Eurofighter 1.22, also the Eurofighter can sustain G forces for unlimited time and is the most agile fighter at supersonic speed and armed with Meteor is the best fighter out there according to the Eurofighter claims.
Nevertheless who knows perhaps the J-10 is the Chinese Zero.
I would like to find better, but all I have is this marketing propaganda.
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.html
“In addition to these overall combat performance results a number of individual comparisons have been made available. Of enormous importance for BVR combat is acceleration at medium altitudes and here the Eurofighter’s acceleration at Mach 0.9 and 22,000ft equals that of the F-22. At supersonic velocities (Mach 1.6 and 36,000ft) the sustained turn rate of the Eurofighter betters all but the F-22, while its instantaneous turn rate is superior to the F-22. At low altitudes, Eurofighter can accelerate from 200kts to Mach 1.0 in under 30 seconds. In a similar vain to its supersonic performance, the sustained and instantaneous subsonic turn rates of the Eurofighter are bettered only by the F-22. Only the Rafale comes close to the matching the Eurofighter’s capabilities in these comparisons.”
Perhaps it is higher than MiG-29`s instant turn rate 28 deg/s but if you can have a more explicit link we can clarify it becasue many consider the Eurofighter as capable as the MiG-29 not better and the JAS-39 inferior to the MiG-29, it is already known that the Su-37, Su-30MKI, F-16 VISTA, and X-31 are the most agile fighter ever produced only the Su-30MKI is in operational service so i feel the J-10 claims of better agility versus the Su-27 can be possible but not confirmed any way the MiG-29 is more agile than the Su-27.
Let me add some stuffs we , brazilian use ๐ . Enjoy!:
Some pics of brazilian indigenou air to air millise MAA-1 Piranha ( as you can see the warhead changed from that one Flogger post here ) . THis missile has the maneuverability as well as range comparable to a MAgic 2 , AIM 9L ( it supports 45Gs) but its seeker is as advanced as a AIM 9X or Mica IR making it almost immune to flares and it will incorpore a ” capatibilitie of discrmimination of false targets”!
The Piranha will be able to prouce images of targets like this one :
MAA-1 Warhead :
Pic of some AAA as well as SAM and other stuff installed on brazilian most moder battleships , some are indigenous as the efficient jammer to full other sips as well as sea skimming missiles : The Niteroi ( before the upgrade was the Uk’s one Type 22 we still use ) :
Our great Sao Paulo :
Brazilian Aspide 2000 SAM fired!
I feel the big mistake by Argentina and Brazil has been the lack of cooperation in the space program, if you get the Condor II and the VLS into one program and you get Russian, Ukranian or Chinese imputs you get an ESA Ariane South American Equivalent.
Embraer has exported jets to the (FAM) Mexican air Force and the ERJ-145 has been the largest purchased in the whole History of the FAM and Aeromexico has also bought ERJ-145 if Brazil sell in Latin America it can really become strong but for that needs strong and wealthy neighbours that is the importance of cooperation.
Embraer needs Enaer to promote development in Latin America and wealth since poor neighbours can not buy Brazilian and the US, the EU, Russia, India and Canada also have their own aerospace industry competing with Brazil.
Alliances with Russia and China can help but Brazil needs markets such as the Mexican to grow.
Mexico has been building Mi-8 Helicopters since 2001 and just signed a second plant deal with Russia in 2004 here is the linkMexico has been building Mi-8 Helicopters since 2001
More like instantaneous turn rate. Rafale, Gripen and M2000 has claims of 30 deg/sec on this department.
i have read russian statements comparing the Su-27 versus western fighters in the book by Andrei Fomin Su-27 Flanker History and the Su-27KS/J-11 has a instantanueous turn rate of 27 deg/sec the Rafale 24 deg/sec so do you have a good link for the Rafale or Eurofighter western one that claim a 30 deg/sec instantaneous turn rate for aircraft such as the Eurofighter or Rafale that basicly is more powerful than the J-10 or Gripen?
kya bidu
You are speaking of G not linked to aerodynamic forces.
Sen but G forces are acting vesus the lift in a turn is not it?
Flogger, you and others have a point here. However allow me to disagree in part, I donยดt think a interim solution is the best one. It will only postpone the matter. The only exception is if the Mirage 2000BR is to be choosen, in this case Kfirs will do fine, because if a french plane must win at least it should be the Rafale, not an airframe in the end of itยดs development potential.
i do not understand why you say that very well could you be more explicit and explain it little bit further please.
I feel the SU-35 is the best option no doubt about it.
Brazil should continue with Mirage 2000 or Su-35 only because they are Cheap, nations like Pakistan have the FC-1 but it`s economy is in shatters, China or India have Su-27/30 MiG-23/27, MiG-21/J-7, LCA, J-10s, J-8/J-8II and a great array of weapons but their living standards are lower than those of Brazil Mexico and Argentina despite their economic rate growth so giving too much importance to the military growth is wrong Embraer products are better than the J-10, LCA simply because the Chinese or Indians hardly sell any of their jets in the international market and China has broken many deals with the russian when China has sold Q-5, J-7s or J-6s as it`s own products and mostly to really poor nations that can not afford western equipment and an economic crisis in China or India will mean as in Russia a stall in military development.
Brazil as Argentina has too many strings attached, for example the Argentinians were developing the Condor II a missile that would had helped Argentina in t`s space program but under US and British military suspicious and economic pressure it`s development was halted.
Brazil has choosen the civil development of it`s aviation and has a domestic technology and Industry, Argentina now has Lockheed but no more domestic industry.
Embraer and the VLS can become money makers, Embraer is already a real world known brand and at least Embraer is making money so i feel only unless Avibras makes money as Embraer or brings a good technology transfer deal for the VLS or the Brazilian rocket industry, i feel Avibras bid has a disadvantage in that sense and the Mirage 2000 is the best option mostly becasue Embraer is making money and hiring workers thing that Lockheed did not do in Argentina when it took over the FMA that makes the IA-63 Pampa
on the picture the Abibal a Iraqi missile developed upon the Argentine Condor II, this missile had many international objections due to the lack a real Argentine Space program as the Brazilian VLS
The Embraer 170 has been exported while the J-8II, J-10 or LCA remain mostly domestic products for the Air Forces of China and India and the most likely will be harder to sell and being purchased by more export buyers than the Embraer 179/190 series.
The ERJ-145 even in military markings has been exported more than any J-10 or LCA at the moment on the picture a ERJ-145 for the Greek Air Force
That’s actually an upgraded Super Mystere, with a Skyhawk engine. They no longer fly sadly.
The Brazilian Mirage III are similar to the Kfir but less capable and in fact the Kfir 2000 or Kfir C10 are possible candidates to replace it until the arrival of the winner of the FX program.
On the Pictures Brazilian Mirage III, MiG-29 and Su-27 poster in portuguese to advertize the russian jets for the FX program , Brazilian AMX A-1, T-23 A-4 Skyhawk and two shots of the Argentinian AI-50 Guarani The Guarani was the first small modern commuter of any latin American Nation
Dan, ๐ฎ
Do you have any other pics of the Kfir C10? ๐ฎYep, 914 was the prototype and was sold to Ecuador.
Sens, Flogger said he “would like more latin american air Forces would use this wonderful fighter “, and the picture you brought is of the Pantera, that although was upgraded to a Kfir level, it’s not a Kfir C10 level…
The pantera is not comparable to the Kfir C10 but to the Kfir C2 or C7 at the most and Brazil has pondered leasing Kfir C10s for the FX program but it is possible that Israel might upgrade the Pantera further into something similar to the C10