Once again, where are YOUR official Serbian combat records?

Check the serbian air force webpage simple like that.

look something beyond ENGLISH because i guess you only speak English you only will check pages from CNN or ABC

9:0 is perfectly fine, thank you. We’ll take that over 50:1 any day of the week.

NATO bias? Please, I don’t think NATO or the US should have even been involved. Anyway where are YOUR official Serbian combat records?

Krasnaya Zveda and Udarnaja Sila are enough and you can check several serb hosted webpages the numbers do not add up with the West.

50:0 yes you are right there were 50 F-16 against 2 MiG-29s in Kosovo, by the way war is not a football match.

4 MiG-29s for a F-117 not a bad trade for the MiG-29 😀

So are you saying they shot down a B-2? And you wanted me to show you a Serbian source claiming a SAM got the F-117. There it is.

That’s because they shot down a grand total of two fast jet combat aircraft. They might have gotten some drones, some airborne decoys, some cruise missiles, and some chaff clouds as well, but insofar as combat aircraft are concerned, there was an F-16 downed and an F-117. And maybe a Mirage, but I might be confusing that with a mid-90’s loss. Anyway, Serbia can claim whatever they want. Let’s see them prove it.

Hehehehe

SOC you say Serbia can claim what ever it wants well NATO can claim what ever they want but also they do propaganda and unless you give me Serbain official sources for the number of kills i will just think you are giving me only western versions.

Regards

Ok. I figured that since this involved Yefim Gordon, a book, and the MiG-29, the source was probably in here somewhere. And I found it in about thirty seconds on my very warped bookshelf. The information comes from his Airlife book, Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum, ISBN 1-84037-028-9, printed in 1999. The bit in question comes from page 122.

Now. What Gordon is alleging is that the F-117A shot down, which he lists as serial 82-0806, was shot down by a MiG-29 piloted by one Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic. It is important to first note one critical piece of information: F-117A #82-0806 is the exact same airframe that the USAF has publicly admitted was lost. We are talking about a single F-117A loss, and not more than one aircraft.

So, Gordon alleges that the jet was first thought to be shot down by a Kvadrat SAM (he incorrectly gives the NATO name as SA-4 Ganef, when in fact the Kvadrat is the SA-6 GAINFUL, and he, like damn near every author, fails to capitalize the codename). Then he references a Krasnaya Zveda article claiming that it was actually downed by a MiG-29.

Now, do you want a Serbian official to dispute that allegation made by the Russian press that a MiG-29 shot down the F-117? Why, here you go:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1251584&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds031

Here’s another version of the exact same story, which gives the name “Gvozden Djukic” as an alias of Col. Dani Zoltan, the air defense commander in charge of the S-125 (SA-3 GOA) unit that actually did shoot down the F-117A:

http://www.edefenseonline.com/?func=article&aref=11_09_2005_OM

So feel free to keep thinking a MiG-29 downed an F-117A, or that more than one was shot down over Serbia. You’ll be wrong, though.

SOC

Okay let`s suppose you got wrong Yefim Gordon in the Serial, the other question you still can not address is this were more aircraft shot down by the Serbians.

Is Udarnaja Sila getting the same information from Gordon? did Krasnaya Zveda got the report of the MiG-29 from a real ceremony where Milosevic awarded the medal to a MiG-29 pilot?

Why the Serb Defence ministry claims in 2005, thirty eight NATO aircraft shot down?

Why they say the painted with their radar the NATO aircraft shot down, would not they know in their radarscope if their SAM were succesful shooting down the NATO aircraft.

Would not the US only release one serial number of the three F-117 shot down?

Undoutedly for a Historian needs not only the US or western Sources you need Krasnaya Zveda`s documents were they claim the MiG-29 kill, the Serbian source that has Milosevic awarding a MiG-29 pilot and not a SAM operator named Danii.

Believe me without any Serbian and official claim matching the NATO score and without a extract from the MiG-29 award is hard to know detailed information.

Gordon seems to be wrong in the serial and in that you are right, however other sources claim a total of three F-117 shot down releasing only one serial number is not proof others were not shot down.

If Krasnaya Zvezda has photos of F-117 being shot down by Mig-29 and Gvozden getting a medal for doing that,then CNN must have the video of Milosevic ordering ethnic cleansing. :rolleyes:

Just leave the topic Flogger,it was discussed many times before.You can search the forum and find topics that discuss how many airplanes have(have not) been shot down etc.

Even us Serbs,know that unfortenutely not more than 2 airplanes were shot down.However,more were likely damaged.

Okay i leave the Topic because beyond some sources i have read or watched i can not prove more for the moment and considering your first hand experience well is hard to sustain, the argument.

Consider that i believe your words as a fellow forum member with this i give as closed and settled the F-117 loss by a MiG-29 in Serb service for the moment.

As historical evidence you have not proved anything and hardly i can say you have disproved Krasnaya Zveda with only your word, but also i can not prove it, if it is authentic what Gordon claims as a fact.

For the moment i can not say more, thanks for your nice opinions both of you.

Regards

But you always pick the right sources to find whatever claim you do. Your special friends Yefim Gordon are very helpful in that.
There are often ways of at least guessing the truth-content of a source. Russian TV from the night of the shot-down has a very limited “truth-content”.

No you are very wrong, i do give credibility to all sources, the Russian TV is as credible as here some forum members or NATO official reports.

The best and most reliable of them all is the Serbian Defence Ministry, the Serbian arm forces and the Serbian Air Force, If offically the Serbian Air Force says there was not F-117 shot down by a Serbian MiG-29 well, mister Yefim Gordon or Udarnaja Sila are totally proven wrong.

But believe a western source for what officially says the Serbian Air Force without any Serbian official statement is totally wrong, honestly i won`t believe such source.

IMHO the MiG-29`s kill of an F-117 is likely, not a fact yet, however it is not unlikely, it is just probable.

up to what i know many Russian sources say it was a fact, it was true a MiG-29 Shot down a F-117 even a Russian TV program with MAPO`s collaboration and Valery Menitsky`s statements says that.

According to Yefim Gordon, Milosevic awarded a medal to a MiG-29 pilot, i do not believe that crap of the changed name, but he says the MiG-29 pilot was awarded and therefore therefore must be an evidence of such event and i doubt there was not the mention of the MiG-29 shooting of the F-117 while awarding the Pilot for such feat

In few words either Milosevic awarded a MiG-29 pilot a medal for shooting down a F-117 or simply he did not.

That’s funny, it was reported in the Western press as early as the 28th of March. That’d be the day after it was lost. Serbia showed pictures of the wreckage on local TV almost immediately (which is damned funny, in that they never managed to produce video evidence of OTHER claimed kills…). NATO acknowledged the loss only after six hours or so had passed. Now why, I wonder, would they do that? Because they wanted to get the pilot to safety first, genius. If they had stated that a jet went down in a given area, that’d key in the Serbians on where to look for the pilot.

SOC

This is the worst explanation you have given me, first the Serbs knew at any time the Pilots`s whereabouts, Why? simply to launch a SAM or AAM you need to feed information to the missile`s computers, The Serbs knew the exact position where the F-117 was shot down, that is a fact because if it was a SAM they knew where it was flying and when the F-117 was in range, same would be a MiG-29 specially if the MiG pilot has visual identification of the F-117.

What the Serbs did not know is where the Pilot was wandering exactly, it was a matter of time and luck, happily for the US rescue team the Pilot was rescued before being capture.

the Serbs knew of course the pilot was hiding and in a small area, and in any news network they will not say the exact position.

The real reason the NATO denied the F-117 shot down is political the dammed aircraft is too expensive and a Primitive SAM-3 shot it down or MiG-29 shot it shows simply all the million dollars invested in that jet are worthless since a second rate air force humilliated all the US high tech

What they were hoping is the Serbs did not have any evidence at all that is the reason they denied the whole incident

The reason that Serbian claims can be discounted or at the very least seriously scrutinized in this instance is that they did, after all, lie to the world and claim that they downed a B-2. Oops. But I guess we should consider them to be honest and forthright sources, right?

So who’s lying? Russia or Serbia? Because either an S-125 got the F-117, or a MiG-29 did.

Once again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Have you ever been with the US military in a combat zone? No? Because I have. And yes, you still train in a war zone. ESPECIALLY in a war zone. And most of the time, you are doing it before the outset of hostilities. Do you think all of the Coalition aircraft, for example, sat on the runway when they arrived in Saudi Arabia, waiting for the war to start on January 17th, 1991? Uh, no. They were flying a lot. But if there was no war, what sort of missions would they have been flying? I wonder… But oh no, I screwed up, I went and used the term “war”. We certainly don’t want martinez getting irritated because the conflict doesn’t involve his definition of “war” :rolleyes:

hehehehe

So all the losses are from training no cover ups so if they are so forth Coming why first deny the F-117 when Serbia claimed the Victory? they should be the first to say we lost it ah! but was until the Serb showed the F-117 wreckage on TV that they had to addmit yes we lost the F-117.

When Serbia has said only we shot down 2 NATO aircraft?

No western Nation wants to alarm their population about war, so they never will release truthful 100% statements all the time.

because as you know it the West claims it has a “free press”.
Undoutedly there is some degree of freedon of speech in the West but it is not perfect.