Under the Monroe Doctrine the US has achieve militarily supremacy in Latin America, thanks to a superior technology and a more developed economy the US has keep an Arms Embargo to the Latin American Nations, contrary to east and souther Asian where India and China have achived first rank militaries, the current state of the aerospace industries in latin america with the exception of Brazil are completly Frozen, the Air Amrs of nations like Mexico or Argentina are at least 30 years behind the current military development, nations like Mexico still rely in the venerable DC-3 and a few F-5Es force self defense, other like Chile have a nascent Aerospace industry but the reality only Brazil posses an truly developed industry.
Mexican Air force
So funny to hear about me, i wonder how anybody can learn if there are no options, i admit i have no major in aerodymanics, i am an archeologist, it is as funny to see you considering me a liar or the worst thing that has happenned to CDF, but it is true that give links, expresses opinions when there is a stablished way of think always finds opposition, Airsande you can be an expert in the MiG-23 Flogger, but why you can not see that your opinions can be challenged or even you can be wrong? a forum is a way to express ideas ways of thinking and more important of Sharing ideas, in fact i do not see anything wrong in post different ideas to your opinions, why i consider funny is you are not open to see beyond a set of sources let the people decide, if i am wrong, do not worry there is no lie that lasts forever, if i am right i do not worry time will tell, everything will be known but this a forum where everybody claims to say the truth and have the better sources but even wrong sources have to be known and no source is less than other until proven wrong or at least decide by your self what is the correct information, in fact i will say something new ideas are the one to have more opposition, i am not saying that everything i am writing when i post something will be right however if i consider that truth can not be challenge just opposed if no one post something different this is not a Forum and like in science where dogma opposes progress, lack of sources opposes diversity in information i will contiue posting other sources because no one owns the truth but the truth it self
See? He corrected his error. And yes, you can doubt any source if you have a good enough reason to do so. ALL sources can contain errors. Just because you see it in print or see it on a webpage does not make it automatically true.
I agree that is the reason i like to mention all the sources
You have got to be kidding me.
That doesn’t stop him from being 100% wrong in this case.
But OKB Mikoyana by Polygon is written with Belyakov and Matyuk MiG designers aid so how good can be Yefim Gordon sources and Polygon is a Russian publisher can you doubt even the Russians? however in this book contrary to his previous work he makes no mention of AA-10s on MiG-23MLD just AA-11 Archer but in the MiG-23 chapter the whole array of weapons is not mention on the MiG-23/27 specifications Chart
Pulqui II an Argentinian built jet based on the German Ta-152
Flogger: people like Airsande have spoken with Bulgarian and Russian MLD pilots. Maybe, at some point, someone planned to fit an HMS to the MLD. The reality is, it certainly didn’t happen. The MLD cockpit lacks the trackers for the HMS that the MiG-29 has either side of the HUD.
If you find a website more convincing than the pilots who actually FLEW the MLD, then there is really no help for you.
These discussions only illustrate the need for a good, authoritative book on the MiG-23 😉
I agree with you i feel there is the need for a good, really good book,, because i have read MiG-37 since 1937, Russian Military Aircraft by Military Parade , and now i am currently reading OKB Mikoyana Aircraft by Polygon.
once i finish the book i will comment more, if i have given links is to see there is wide diversity of opinions, i for example once quoted Yefim Gordon and he said the Flogger MiG-23MLD can use AA-10, i proved the MiG-23-98 Flogger can use AA-10 easily, pages that prove it can use it easy by simple modifications but to his book many do not give credit however i do in some way though.
technically i am not wrong, historically well there has been great debates once with you and now with Airsande, about the MiG-23MLD capabilities, there has been Bulgarian and Russian webpages denying Alexader`s statements but if you beleive Alexander it is okay with me what i do like is finding variety of sources and once i finish OKD Mikoyana by Polygon i will write another statement and OKB Mikoyana was Written by MiG designers R. BELYAKOV, N. Matyuk and the aviation journalist Yefim Gordon so i recommend you the book now this russian page says is possible to installe a HMS, technically it is possible and Military Parede said in it`s book Russian Military Aircraft that additionally the Russian can fit HMS as part of a MiG-23MLD upgrade if we know the MiG-23-98 is marketed to MiG-23MS/MF/ML/MLDs operational around the world such as Bulgaria`s MiG-23MLD that lack the AA-11 Archer capability we can see that technically is not a problem, so i am not lying if i said the statemenst i have said but since i am cautious i will look for more sources and books and personally i gave him 50% of credibility if he is right after i read more i will recognize it but if i find source denying him i will quote them or i will give links to have at least more variaty of opinions
By the way my Step Mother`s exhusband was a Russian military pilot stationed in northen Russia but she hates talking about aircraft (but 😀 she knows nothing about them :D) since her exhusband died relatively recently and she sometimes has helped me with the translation of russian texts so it will take a while since OKB Mikoyana i have not finished yet so difficult to translate in this way .
Then why do you ask? Welcome to my ignore list, by the way.
thank you
[b]WARNING[/b]
Flogger’s last link is a spyware-installer, better not to click that one.Besides, if someone can explain Flogger that wrong information tends to be copied all over the internet by people as gullible as himself, i’d be really grateful.
thank You for the warning, Do not click it but when i did it read that the MiG-23 can use HMS
I know but that it`s new knew name in Russia
I am not moderating in this thread at all, but yeah, that’s probably bias.
So you want me to prove a negative? Okay. Belyakov’s MiG-book mentions production and continued development of the MiG-17 (J-5), MiG-19 (J-6) and MiG-21F (J-7) in China. It doesn’t about the Ye-152A.
this is my last reply for the Ye-152A/J-8 unless you continue.
The reports never said the Ye-152A was granted building rights license to the Chinese, if Belyakov did not mention it is becasue there was not such a deal of such nature, what was tranferered was data not the aircraft he did not mentioned it because Russia never granted Production of the Ye-152 to the Chinese so there were no variants build out of Russia legally speaking , the opposite is sending documentation on the Ye-152A that is completly different and that to my point it`s very likely that the Russian send documents . And by the way Belyakov book even as good piece of work it is, it can not deal all the details of a huge organization as is MAPO unless you propose it as a new Bible all infallible and where nothing more can be added.
Crob,
Unless you really insist and want to spend way too much time and effort in making Flogger look even more obnoxiously ignorant, i suggest you leave him to his delusions. Since there is a spark of hope in this thread for it to get on track again (SOC and Sens and the Intake Issue) i’ll leave it at that, but the thought of locking has crossed my mind.
Okay Arthur, since all my links are false and yours are true, let`s do that unless some one brings back the topic i won`t reply back to mention the J-8/Ye-152 relation.
You can continue the thead to choose another subject about the J-8II
But unless you prove me with original Documents from MiG or Shengyang or an official MAPO statement about the fact J-8 is not based on the Ye-152 documentations i will consider that your links are as false as mine.
And that as a Moderator your mediation is bias.
Flogger,
Please do not be a kid, and hear what the people with more info say. I am already tired to discuss with you by anyway: The only produced MLD for the VVS was the 23-18, conversion of 23-12s. The other MLDs for the VVS with internal jammers, etc remained only test articles, and 23-98 is a dummy airframe with some weapons for external appearance and no more. They can write that they can arm it with the R-33 and some other stuff, and you will gonna to believe. In this case, your posts could be suitable for another thread for speculations and what could have been…
A russian link that confirms the fact that MiG-23s can use Helmet Mounted Sight andShlemnogo sight HMS in MiG-23s AA-11Archer
Looking at the pictures of J-8, Ye-152, and J-7, J-8 is very similar to J-7. It was definitely a larger 2 engines version of J-7.
I don’t see any similarities between J-8 and Ye-152,
> Noses are different, J-8 is smaller while YE-152 is larger and fatter.
> Ye-162 nose cone stick out long, but J-8’s almost inside.
> J-8 fuslage is slinder and longer while Ye-152 is fatter and shorter
> The rodders is also different, J-8 is biger while Ye-152 is smaller
> The shape of the rodders are totaly different
> Wheels and landing gears are totally different ones.
> The shape of verticale fins are also different
> The canobies are also totally different
> Perhap the only thing in common is delta wings?The Chinese were already master delta wing, no need to study Ye-152 just to get a delta wing configuration to build a new plane, there was J-7 for that purpose.
This arguement of “Is J-8 from Ye-152?” should be end now, wasting many pages of bandwith without any solid prove.
Crobato,
Why don’t you explain to us what really J-8 can do that J-7 can’t and why is the Chinese useed that afford to build two engines J-7? Beside two engines, what are the differences between J-8 and J-7 in terms of avionic, technologies, performance etc?
Thanks in advance.
The J-8 is longer than the Ye-152, the J-8 is not slender than the Ye-152 what happens is the Ye-152 is more compact since is shorter making it to look chunkier but in fact the J-8 is huge and the Ye-152 has a shorter fuselage and used a bigger radar but from the aft they are similar the tail planes also are similar and the aft width is also similar since they have the same engines the WP-7/R-11.
The links are stupid. How many times did I tell you that? The guy who wrote them is a fool.
Look at the aft fuselage of the J-8 and the YE-152. LOOK. Like everything you like to jump on superficial appearances. The AFT fuselages are even more different than the forward. They are very different from each other. The J-8 is more oval, black and unpainted, and it has a lip between the nozzles. The YE-152 is much more rounded, it is painted right to the end, and it does not have the lip.
Compare this to the butt of the J-8s on top. LOOK.
Compare it with your own picture.
that is not a Ye-152A but the Ye-166, single engine aircraft
The Japanese F-2 still used a lot F-16 parts directly. The Cheetah and the Kfir is still based on the Mirage III airframe directly. So was the Pantera. The Q-5 Fantan is still the MiG-19 behind the cockpit all the way to the tail. Mostly unchanged. Different specifications does not change anything.
Your argument just went completely flat. Easy and logical? Guess again, they only serve to make you wrong again.
Why would the Chinese modify a design that works right? Yes, the design did work right, well enough to be seriously considered for operational use until superceded by more advanced specifications. The PL-8 which was a copy of the Python 3, remained virtually a copy. The PL-4/6/10/11 all remained virtual copies of the Sparrow and Aspide.
The Chinese are smart. They would not change a design that isn’t BROKEN.
Your reasoning is completely foolish. Like everything you have shown and acted on these forums.
Look at the J-7E. That’s the MiG-21 adapted to the Chinese own use. Did it have a significant fuselage change? NO. The fuselage is still the MiG-21F. They changed the wing, the electronics and the engine. But the fuselage is still directly the MiG-21F.
Look at the FTC-2000 trainer. Behind the cockpit and the wings, you can still see it’s still a MiG-21.
You cannot distinguish what is truly a copy and what is indigenous. It’s all because of your pride and obsessession wanting to connect the Russian projects to the J-8, when all the evidence, circumstances and logic says otherwise.
YOU ARE ONLY INTERESTED ON YOUR OWN MYTH MAKING.
I will say i gave you links i did not make them or invented them, The J-8 has Russian engines, if the report is right the airframe was based in the Ye-152 data and in J-7, and the aft fuselage in the J-8 is quit similar to the Ye-152, what you forget to mention is the fact that the Q-5 the Chinese built under license the whole aircraft and the Ye-152 they only got the data and that is the difference.