Out of curiosity how do you determine which sources are accurate and which are not? Because if they give different results, then clearly some of them have to be wrong. And if some of them are wrong, then they cannot be used to determine the effectiveness of the aircraft, can they?

So you’re saying that a MiG-29 got the F-117 and not an S-125 SAM? Because only one F-117 has ever been lost in combat.

Let`s start with Gulf War I, the US and Western countries lost several aircraft among them an F-15E which crew was killed and never made it back several Tornadoes, several F-15Es, F-14s, and other aircraft, Western sources always say One aircraft lost to air to air combat yes yes. :rolleyes: only SAMs. do you think they always know what happens to all their aircraft or they will release always truthful statemenst? when they even denied the F-117 that appeared on TV 😉

Russia says a MiG-29 shot down an F-117 and you have people they changed the name of the pilot hehehehehehehe. :rolleyes:

I have a very easy way to determine likelyhood simply is i do not believe one side, you believe only one side NATO, i do not.

I do not question if the MiG-29 or MiG-23 have not been shot down, i know they have been shot down, but have you asked your self why accounts differ?

i Have seen for example Israeli real video footage from the Bekka Valley from a series of Aircraft Videos by DeAGOSTINi titled “Israeli Air power in Action”, yes they are shooting down some aircraft from an F-16`s cockpit, you can not see if they are MiG-23s or MiG-21s though, Syria or Russia never denied losses, is usually the West which denies losses under political reasons.

I do not believe those so called “accidents in the war zone”Who will train in WAR zones? accidents yes yes accidents :rolleyes:

Likelihood the Serbians and Iraqies had good pilots is high and achieved Victories high.
Likelihood they were going to win those technological wars very very low, did NATO win the ground war in the Balkans? they never did that, simply the Serbs knew without Russian help or any other big power their cause was lost.

Same was with Iraq that is the reason they flew their aircraft to Iran and later simply dug them in the desert sands.

True, if I got an up to date version I would see a 0-70 record instead of 0-50.

Uhm i guess you can not read Kanjies or Japanese can you? Burindo`s book is one of the best book you will find.

Gordon`s is the best Book you will find in the western market but Saddly Mike Spick never gives that score you are claiming, in fact he claims a 36:0 agaisnt Israel and a 8:0 against the US.

He does not mention any other MiG-23 air to air Combat.

Now can you say he mentioned any other scenario like Angola, Iran-Iraq war, Afghanistan? no he does not mention anything.

Other books like Gordon`s or Burindo give better and more in deep views.

There are more books and magazines specially in Russia.

Same will be with the MiG-29`s combat record

Mike Spick`s section on MiGs only has 16 pages about the MiG-23 and less than 5 pages on the MiG-29 tell me how much information he can give you if he hardly dedicated the book to any MiG? Check his book has more than 500 pages

He usually covers each American aircraft in 60-68 pages and the MiG-23 is only 16 pages and that is also because he covers the MiG-27 in the same section, the MiG-25`s section has only 6 pages

Mike Spick only gives credit to Western claims but never makes any reference to Syrian or Iraqi claims

In few words his book hardly can have in the MiG section a really broad view about the any MiG beyond what was known in the West in the cold war.

You wouldn’t believe the losses we’re taking! In fact, we don’t believe the losses ourself either 😀

get into a serious debate, get into a serious debate hehehehehehehehe, I am doubting your sanity heheheehehehe you are a serious debater :rolleyes: 😀

Then post the audio file, a transcript or just a link to that documentary you mention. Ty znaesh ya nemhochko panimayu po-russki.

Buddy my dear wife is Russian, my dear step mother is Russian can you guess if i do not understand some russian

I already said what they said “F-117 shot down by a MiG-29”

As if verifiable accident reports don’t exist. Outside Floggerland, they do. Unfortunately, if you had half a brain and actually did what i so clearly pointed out for you, you would have learned there are no F-117s unaccounted for. But yet again, you refuse to enter a serious debate, instead of which you continue posting evident nonsense. If you either are unable or unwilling to actually discuss matters, i wonder what you are doing here.

And stop it with the hehehehehehe-bit. I am already seriously worried about your sanity, but this way you’re really freaking me out.

Hehehehehehehehe now the serious debater, who can not even tape a program in a video cassete and claims TV has no evidence.

Later now you turn into a Psyquiatrist and psycologist of my personality uh mama mia.

Relax man take it easy, you do not need uncounted to change a loss by saying accident, burned as an accident instead of burned as a product of a gun bullet.

Hey dudes give it a break and enjoy this 😉

Beautiful picture

How many aircraft serials have dissappeared from sightings after the 1999 conflict? Just try it for yourself: take a list of all F-117 serials (like the one at http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/toppan/f117.html ), go to Scramble’s USAF database at http://www.scramble.nl/dbmil.htm , and look for each and every USAF F-117. How many have strangely disappeared since April 1999? That’s right: ZERO.

So do yourself a favour, and stop with your nonsense-arguments. You like the right aircraft for the worst reasons ever invented. And that ‘invented’ is of course ment literally.

What do you mean by strangely disappeared? do you know you can cover a loss by simply saying accident, yes accident, malfunction, pilot error and the very commonly it had an accident in the combat zone hehehehehehehe yeah yeah and later you use mass media and deny any loss unless your enemy has any evidence

Flogger, you really do live in a complete fantasy world.

You do realise that the Editor of AFM, Alan Warnes has recently visited Batajnica and interviewed Serb commanders? Not one Yugoslav pilot made ANY claim against ANY manned combat aircraft. Not one Yugoslav pilot even makes a claim of launching any air-to-air missiles or firing his cannon during any engagement. Yugoslav aviation enthusiast Mark Nixon even interviewed some of the pilots in person. Tom Cooper has also made contact with some of them and yet still not one claim from any MiG-29 pilot of ANY air-to-air claim? The nearest that any MiG-29 pilot got was Major Arizanov who was about to arm his R-27s when he was hit by an AMRAAM on the 24 March 1999. Arizanov unable to control his aircraft ejected over Kosovo.

The info regarding the claimed MiG-29 shoot down of F-117A, serial 82-806, was published in Yefim Gordon’s book “Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum – Multi-Role Fighter”. This book was published in 1999. On page 122 there is an article taken from Russian Ministry of Defence daily “Krasnaya Zveda” in late May99 which states that the F-117A, serial 82-806, had been destroyed by a MiG-29 flown by Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic and that he had been awarded a medal by Milosevic for doing so. It is now nearly seven years since the conflict and still no Yugoslav pilot is honoured or citated for bringing down any F-117 or any NATO aircraft. Alan Warnes visited Batajnica and still no word of this fighter pilot who brought down an F-117? Do you not think that he would be the toast of the 127th LAE? Flogger, note the serial? Even Yefim credits this F-117 as 82-806.

Have you actually read Yefim Gordon’s claims in that book. He has a number of MiG-29s shot down by hostile force during the Yugoslav break up. These he even has down by serial number! Strange that those ‘shot down’ MiG-29s were still in the inventory pre Allied Force?

Flogger, have you ever wondered why you haven’t heard any more from Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic? Do you not think that ‘Gvozden’ would be a national hero? Does it not make you wonder why the Serbs media lists Lt. Col. Gvozden Djukic as a commander of an air defence unit? You do realise that the commander of the 204 Fighter Regiment was Colonel Pavlovic and that no Yugoslav pilot named Gvozden Djukic ever existed?

Gvozden Djukic was the alias given to Dani Zoltan. Dani Zoltan was the commander of the 3rd battery of the 250th Rocket Brigade that shot down F-117A serial 82-806. It was Colonel Dani Zoltan that received the medal from Milosevic. As per the ghost writers embellishing MiG-29 pilot post combat records they also gave Dani Zoltan a Yugoslav name to hide his Hungarian ethnic background. It wasn’t until 2000 that Dani Zoltan emerged from his alias and was interviewed in the documentary “For Free Sky”.

“highly reputable sources”

Flogger, please give it a rest. Every single F-117 was noted by aviation enthusiasts during the conflict. Please inform all of us as to which airframe by serial is missing from the inventory? Ask Arthur about the the exploits of spotters during the conflict. Please contact Gregory R. Copley again after this long 7 years and ask him about the following claims he made back in 1999?

I apologise to the seasoned military enthusiast for publishing this complete and utter non-sense from Flogger’s source Gregory R. Copley. Flogger, can you come up with a more reputable source other than Gregory R. Copley? Apologies for laughing at you Flogger, but you must choose your sources far more carefully. Flogger maybe you can contact Gregory R. Copley and let him provide you with an update of all those undisclosed NATO losses in both manpower and equipment?

Flogger, maybe he can give you a run down again on what info is contained on a US or UK dog-tag? Gregory seems very informed on such matters? Chortle! Anyway Flogger, back to you! Flogger’s next source “Come on down!” Will you be bringing Venik as your next source? 😀

http://agitprop.org.au/stopnato/19990507natolosses.php

“NATO Losses and the Military Costs: It is clear from the amount and quality of intelligence received by this journal from a variety of highly-reputable sources that NATO forces have already suffered significant losses of men, women and materiel. Neither NATO, nor the US, UK or other member governments, have admitted to these losses, other than the single USAF F-117A Stealth fighter which was shown, crashed and burning inside Serbia.

The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff had denied, about a month into the bombing, that the US had suffered the additional losses reported to Defense and Foreign Affairs.

By April 20, 1999, NATO losses stood at approximately the following:

38 fixed-wing combat aircraft;
Six helicopters;
Seven unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs);
‘Many’ Cruise Missiles (lost to AAA or SAM fire).
Several other NATO aircraft were reported down after that date, including at least one of which there was Serbian television coverage. The aircraft reportedly include three F-117A Stealth strike aircraft, including the one already known. One of the remaining two was shot down in an air-to-air engagement with a Yugoslav Air Force MiG-29 fighter; the other was lost to AAA (anti-aircraft artillery) or SAM (surface-to-air missile) fire. Given the recovery by the Yugoslavs of F-117A technology, and the fact that the type has proven less than invincible, the mystique of the aircraft — a valuable deterrent tool until now for the US — has been lost.

At least one USAF F-15 Eagle fighter has been lost, with the pilot, reportedly an African-American major, alive and in custody as a POW.

At least one German pilot (some sources say two men, implying perhaps a Luftwaffe crew from a Tornado) has been captured.

There is also a report that at least one US female pilot has been killed.

In one instance in the first week of the fighting, an aircraft was downed near Podgorica. A NATO helicopter then picked up the downed pilot, but the helicopter itself was then shot down, according to a number of reports.

Losses of US and other NATO ground force personnel, inside Serbia, have also been extensive.

A Yugoslav Army unit ambushed a squad climbing a ravine south of Pristina, killing 20 men. When the black tape was taken from their dog-tags it was found that 12 were US Green Berets; eight were British special forces (presumably Special Air Service/SAS). This incident apparently occurred within a week or so of the bombing campaign launch.

It is known that other US and other NATO casualties have, on some occasions, been retrieved by NATO forces after being hit inside Yugoslavia. At least 30 bodies of US servicemen have been processed through Athens, after being transported from the combat zone.

At least two of the helicopters downed by the Yugoslavs were carrying troops, and in these two a total of 50 men were believed to have been killed, most of them (but not all) of US origin.

Certainly, the US has lost to ground fire and malfunction a number of Tomahawk Cruise Missiles. At least some of these have been retrieved more or less intact, and the technology has been immediately reviewed by Yugoslav engineers. More than one told this writer that the technology was now readily able to be replicated in Yugoslavia.

The war has cost Alliance members in other ways, too. There is enormous disaffection with the US Armed Forces. For a start, to prosecute even the smallest expansion of the war requires the call-up of Reserve and National Guard units. The personnel from these units have civilian jobs, and, as with the US involvement in S-FOR in Bosnia-Herzegovina, being called up for active duty in the Balkans seems to be an open-ended thing. This is not the type of national emergency for which most of them signed-on. “

Long Speech to say nothing

Give first the Serb Air Force webpage where they say, they shot down only two aircraft.

Udarnaja Sila is as credible as all your western sources that lack an Official Serbian Support, you say too much but prove me with the Serbian Air Force that they only say We only Shot down two aircraft easy.

After you prove me that well i utterly will believe your version or your sources in the meantime Udarnaja Sila, Yefim Gordon and Copley have the same credibility.