That’s the problem of an arm race, when country buy more than they could afford in a “normal” way.

The inexistence of an arms race in Latin America for economic reasons is a myth, Latin america has had no arms race for two reasons:

First:The US has banned arms sales to any latin American nation including the MERCOSUR South America`s nations
Second:If there is an Arms race it is not going to be within the latin americans nation, pittig each latin American nation against each other but rather between an ascending Brazilian south american power and the US the ascending MERCOSUR BLOCK is arming itself with Russian weapons, Argentina has been banned of buying any weapons since the Falkland`s war, Venezuela is as Cuba harrrased by the US politically and economically, and Brazil is opting for it`s own security for Chinese and Russian military links even Mexico the US closest ally in Latin America has chosen Russia as a Military supplier if Brazil opts for Su-35s and achieves a UNITY in SOUTH AMERICA and adquires NUCLEAR WEAPONS a real cold war will appear in Latin America but the most likely South America will be like the EU, a US ally but will have an independent agenda rather than continue as a US economic satellite a thing that was rejected in Cancun WTO talks
In fact India, China, Russia and Pakistan are in many ways poorer nations than the Latin American Nations but all of them have nuclear weapons, if in Latin America there has no been an Arms race between the Latin American nations because Brazil as Argentina know MERCOSUR means a UNITED LATIN AMERICA since all the nations are and were part of the same culture and were part of the UNITED PORTUGUESE-SPANISH CROWN

No, I say that you should develop satelitte technolgy, but you should skip developing your own launch platform. You can always buy launch services from the cheapest bidder. I mean look at the development of current satellites. Telecommunication staelittes are becoming larger and heavier, that means you need a heavy lift launch system. The system currently under development is limited to micro / small satelittes, that are only of very limited comercial value. So it would mean to develop yet another launch platform.
The money could be better spent on building and operating your own systems.
I would also not limit myself to one partner nations. Cooperate which who you want, and with who you think is best for the project you need. If you limit yourself to one partner nation you will ne limited to the technology level of you partner. If you need more you would have to develop that technology with yur partner, although you might could buy it from other oranisations.

You reasonong has a huge flaw if Brazil does not develop rocket launchers always needs to pay some one to launch it`s satellite but if Brazil has the Launcher the braazilian can offer their services to other nations and with that pay their own program.
Look the case of Mexico and Brazil, Mexico spends the large amounts of money in it`s satellites but is uncapable to launch a satellite, Brazil will be able to launch it`s own satelllites at the long run Brazil can offer to Mexico to launch the Mexican satellites from alcantara that is what in the FX program the Brazilians are thinking how to achieve the best technology transfer to further the brazilian aerospace industry and the Russian offer is the best. who do you think wil make more money at the long run Mexico or Brazil? Mexico is allowing the US to launch its satellites fom US launchers making Lockheed and Boeing richer, you are saying we should follow Mexico`s example in order to keep the US industry healthy and Mexico uncapable of design any sattelite launcher or Aircraft that is the reason Mexico opted for the Russian technology transfer with the Mi-8 assembly plants

Flogger

would it not be better for Brazil to coorporate with India with full tech disclosure,such things were discussed when the Brazilian pm last visited India, Brazil can thus gain full access and easily catch up in satelite tech. Maybe even the Chinese could offer Brazil a similar deal, 3rd world naitons should coorporate together, it makes more economics sense.

I agree with you 100% but the Brazilian approach to technology transfers is to diversify the sources so it can have more freedom and be less affect by embargos so India also is in the Brazilian list of partners

Again, Brazil can compete better “commercially” than Russia already.

Embraer has a large and growing share of the market. Russia has nothing like the ERJ-145 with 800 sold and no end in sight for new orders (and not only the civilian market but with the multi-billion dollar US Army/Navy buy of the ERJ-145’s for the Aerial Common Sensor program this platform in moving into the military sphere.)

Fighter planes are hit or miss sellers. Commercial jets are sold at a much more constant pace year after year as long as the model remains current.

Maybe the Brazilians here could tell us better. But my impression is that Embraer is considered a Brazilian company whether it has minority French partners or not. In fact, it is probably the most well-known Brazilian firm in the world (next to Pele who is a major Brazilian corporation all by himself :D)

Despite the tragic setback from the explosion, the space program hasn’t stopped even as they work to rebuild the launchg site. Brazil and China are working on their third and fourth CBERS satellites.

And they are already planning for the fourth one to be launched from Alcantara.

The space program is important but it is progressing so Brazil has no need to jeopardize Embraer’s share in the civilian market by funding Sukhoi for fighters that are good but not critical to Brazil’s security.

Seahawk 🙂 hello

I feel you are saying that Latin America should rely on the big powers for satellite technology give up our own programs and let the Americans, Europeans, Indians, Russian and Chinese do the work and we paid and we continue lagging behind in high technology

I feel and i consider that unless Latin America deveopes it`s own Telecomunications and Satellite technology , we are going to be poor nations.
Satellite technology implies better electronics, metalurgy and the capability to supply telecommunicatios services cheaper to Latin america and third world users.
Brazil still needs technology transfers since basicly it saves money and time, in the case of the chinese we can see it has boosted them into the third most advanced space program

The US will say that the VLS can be modify to create an ICBM but the reality they do not want competition and you are right Brazil is free and can do the agreements she desires and the Rusaain and Chinese are good technology transfer allies and that will allow Brazil to become a nation that can design it`s own technology.

It owes far more to the MiG-21/J-7.

China never had a Flagon example and the Su-15 was a strategic interceptor for USSR, which would have been a major coup if China had gotten blueprints for one.

The Ye152 is simply speculation because they “look” alike. The development of the J-8I began at a time when China was completely isolated from the USSR and was actually in a hot border war with it.

The J8I is simply a scaled up J-7 with two engines instead of one.

The J8II incorporated new ideas and there might be things from MiG-23s from Egypt. But the philosophy of a tailed delta is far different from a swing-wing.

As far as the BVR is concerned, both J-8 and J-9 programs started at the same time in 1960s and the PL-4 intended for the J-9 was to be carried by the J8 after the J-9 was cancelled.

Now the PL-4 was fired from a J8II in the early 1980s and the Aspide which China acquired from Italy in 1988 couldn’t have been fired by any other fighters in the PLAAF inventory.

The J8II has been carrying at the very least the Aspide since the 1990s.

And we have pictures of it carrying the PL-11. We saw PL-11 on the J-10 which indicates it is a standard AAM of the PLAAF. Otherwise, it would have been mockups of the SD-10 like those on FC-1 models.

Golden Dragon 🙂 hello

But i think the Aspide armament statement does not take in consideradtion the Tianamen Square event and the following Arms embargo that did not allow the Europeans to sell weapons to the Chinese so it is wrong the statement that the J-8II has been armed with Aspides since the early 1990s
The EU arms embargo does not add up with the J-8II armed with Aspides operationally.
The PL-11 and PL-10 were basicly the attempts to fix what the arms embargo created, a lack of Aspides and by the way to build a home derivative of the AIM-7/Aspide for the PLAAF.
The PL-11 is operational no doubt about it but still not in large numbers
due to the fact the PL-11 is quit new since only in 2002 the P-11 development finished and the PL-11 you are seeing since the mid 1990s were experimental missiles and according to the Chinese the PL-11 is a Missile that is aimed to the export market and that the PL-12 will be the main armament of J-8II and J-10 as a BVR weapon because the PL-11 has a range of 25km

I do not think that the J-8 was not influence a bit by the Ye-152 anf Sukhoi T-5 in fact they did not have maidens flights very separated from each other and the Ye-152 and J-8 are basicly the same airframe, so it is possible that the Chinese were very influenced by the Ye-152 and i beleive that perhaps they adquiered some Ye-152 o T-5 blueprints

We can put it this way. Roughly.

About 300 to 400 built of all types. About 10-12 regiments of the J-8II with each regiment from 24? aircraft to a maximum of 40. Actual numbers should be somewhere in between.

Of this, probably about 130 are J-8Is, which is the type with the round inlet nose and looks like a Ye-152. 20-30 were sold to Iraq, some were lost in the Iran-Iraq airwar and the remainder in the GW1. There should still be around three to four regiments of this type. One regiment is converted as reconnaissance. Two regiments were converted to the J-8E configuration.

The rest are the J-8II configuration with the sharp nose and the lateral side intakes. Surprisingly, the J-8II only shares 30% parts commonality with the J-8I, basically that 30% is the engine.

Variants:

J-8 Basic day fighter, no BVR missiles, PL-2 or PL-5B missiles. WP-7 engines
J-8I Type 204 or SR4 monopulse radar, no BVR missiles, PL-2 or PL-5B missiles.

JZ-8 Recon variant of J-8

J-8II Otherwise known as the J-8B, this is the base variant. Type 208 radar with PL-10 capability, with queing of PL-8 all aspect IR missiles. WP-13A1 engines. The radar ain’t very good, prompting the need for a foreign replacement of the radar. This initiated the Grumman Peace Pearl project to replace the Type 208 radar with the APG-66. Canceled after Tianammen Square incident, but destined to be canceled anyway due to cost overruns.

J-8B Ditto above. Many J-8Bs could have been upgraded with the Type 1471/KLJ-1 radar.

J-8C This was a major experimental platform circa 1995. The J-8C never came to service but it had profound effects on the development of the family. The type was fitted with MFDs, a refueling probe, PL-11 missiles and the ELTA M 2034 radar, a customized variant of the ELTA M 2032 radar. The redesign was meant to address the defects of the J-8B.

The 2034 was never adopted, and so was a FIAR proposal for a Grifo variant for the same plane. Instead, in 1996, the plane was flying the Type 1471 radar, also known as KLJ-1 for its factory designation. The KLJ-1 was China’s first successful slotted array pulse doppler. It could support the PL-11 SARH missile and the PL-8 IR AAM; it had lock down mode, and it probably has ground and sea search, as well as track while scan and multiple targeting ability. The radar was a major breakthrough for the Chinese, as the radar on the J-10 seems to be derived from it (KLJ-3), as well as for the J-7G (KLJ-6E) as well as the proposed ones for the J-11 and FC-1. I believe the KLJ-1 may have absorbed technologies from the Elta 2034.

Later around the year 2000, the J-8C prototypes were used to test the Kunlun engines, also known as WP-14.

J-8D. Hard to say when this plane came to service. Some sources say 1996 others 1999. It had the Type 1471/KLJ-1 radar and an IFR probe. There is another variant called the Block 02 by enthusiasts for the lack of proper designation, but it appears to be the same plane without the IFR probe though the plumbing remains there. There is around five to six regiments of this plane, one of them with the PLANAF. There are many pictures of this plane refueling in midair. Engine appears to be the WP-13AII.

J-8E. These are J-8Is upgraded with JL-7AG radar, an improved variant of the JL-7A radar used on the J-7D. The JL-7 radar was first introduced on the J-7C but the whole type was not successful. The JL-7 radar was improved to the JL-7A, probably reworked with Israeli help, since the radar could now que the PL-8 missile, which is a Python 3 copy. You don’t get that knowhow to que a Python without the Israelis teaching you how. The JL-7A went to the J-7D, and the successful Type 226 radar on the J-7E appears derived from it. Thus the term “J-8E” is meant to match the J-7E. This plane has no BVR missile capability at all.

J-8F The latest variant of the J-8II family. It sports Kunlun II engines (7600kg thrust each), so expect it to be very fast. The radar appears to be an improved Type 1471 that can launch the SD-10 missile. A prototype of this plane appears to be used for SD-10 test trials. Some news say that small numbers of this plane appear to have been built.

J-8G — Please note letter suffixes do not follow in sequence when it comes to the Chinese. “G” is often a reserved letter signifying “Gai” or improved. A J-8G would therefore have been a significantly improved J-8.

J-8H — H is another letter that tends to be off sequence, probably meant as a bomber sort of thing. This version appears to have two wing fences on the wing and a new exhaust nozzle that suggests a new engine, which could be the higher rated WP-13B. The RWR on this plane appears different too. It is said to have a SEAD capability, using two or four YJ-91 (licensed manufacture Kh-31Ps). The radar type used on this plane is on dispute. It may be a Type 1471 attached to a new RWR system; it may be the Zhuk-8II first used on the F-8IIM prototype. It may even be the JL-10A radar used on the JH-7A whose fire control system can use the Kh-31P. Small numbers of this plane may have entered service, at least one or two regiments.

Prototypes.

F-8IIM — Two prototypes with the Zhuk-8II radar, a strengthened airframe, two WP-13B engines. It can support various Russian guided munitions and missiles, as well as Chinese missiles and unguided munitions. Intended as a multirole aircraft, the F-8IIM was originally meant for export but the J-8H could be derived from it.

J-8II ATX — A prototype used to test FBW systems. This plane had active canards. Probably related to J-10 systems development.

What surprise me is the lack of clarity about the J-8 and J-8II program, while many consider prototypes as operational standard fighters, even the missiles sometimes are quoted with completly contradictory data.

My personal opinion is that the J-8II program owes a lot to the MiG-23 and basicly is a Chinese Su-15 Flagon.
Some advanced versions of the J-8II have tested the PL-12 or PL-11 however many consider this jet as already armed with those weapons in large scale when in fact the J-8II still relies operationally in short range Missiles and it will not be a BVR fighter until perhaps 2005 or even later.
The engines are basicly the R-11-300/WP-7 and the R-13-300/WP-13 and the new Kunlun is in the same league as the R-25 fitted to the Su-15MT Flagon Bis and these will very likely keep the J-8II performance as that of the Su-15MT and won`t make it a fourth generation fighter but will keep it`s performance in the realm of an advanced Su-15 variant making it a Chinese Flagon in the 21st century armed with derivative of the AA-12 Adder
The J-8 is basicly a Ye-152 and even has the same engines and the J-8II also share engines with the Su-15MT, the J-8II has almost identical inlets and ventral fin to the MiG-23, these were reversed engineered from the 4 MiG-23MS delivered by Egypt to China a fact neither denied by China or affirmed but that has been reported as had had happened and if we compare the MiG-23 program to the J-8 we will see that basicly are very similar.
The Gsh-23 twin barrel cannon is used by the MiG-23 and the J-8II.
But after all i like the J-8II a lot and is my favorite Chinese jet
The MiG-23PD is basicly where the J-8II and MiG-23 Program share a same philosophy

People forget just how large and competent the Brazilian aviation industry is. As far as selling profitable airplanes to the civil market, Embraer is not only more than a match, it is far ahead of Sukhoi or any other Russian manufacturer for that matter. The Embraer 145, 170 and 190 lines are becoming dominant platforms in their space.

According to the most recent articles, the ERJ-145 series alone had sold over 800 and has a backlog of several hundreds more.

This is not peanuts. So the Brazilian government is absolutely right in protecting Embraer’s share of the world’s market. Money paid to Sukhoi would fund the RRJ as Seahawk and others said. The Su-35 is nice to have but not critical for Brazil’s safety. And over time, there is no reason an industry that has produce platforms like the ERJ-145 and AMX would not be able to develop their own fighters.

The question is not if Brazil can develope or not fighters or Airplanes but how can Brazil achieve the fastest way of adquiring technology to compete commercially with the stablish superpowers.
The Su-35 in fact are not so important but the technology transfer and that is what matters, France has in South America the Arianne laucher space pad so Alcanta in Brazil is the closest competitor to it for such a reason the French bid does not includes technical help to the Brazilian space program, also Avibras is 100% Brazilian and it`s main products are Missiles therefore the Russian offer is better for the Brazilians but since Brazil still is a peaceful country and France has a big stake in EMBRAER the Brazilian Government still is undecided if go nationalistic or simply wait a little bit longer delaying the space program a little further but keeping the French Happy and therefore Embraer`s future but i feel the Brazil will find a way into the space faring nations.