True, but television is far, far, far harder to factcheck from a media-consumer’s point of view. You can’t spell out each and every word from a TV ‘documentary’ as you can with an internet article or popular magazine article, because it’s too fast. And considering the way the human mind absorbs and handles information, subtleties like “could be”, “possibly”, “might be” and such are usually completely lost, even if those have survived the editing-round for the definitive TV-doc audio track. Also, you might be surprised how little room there is for actual information in television: the amount of text to go with the pictures is absolutely minimal. And you might believe that from someone who has experience not only writing articles for newspapers and magazines, but also texts for radio and television. If fact, you can cram a lot more factual info in a radio doc that you can in a text for television, just because the images actually distract from the audible information.

But then again, you don’t have to tell me… The mere suggestion of a non-existant event makes it immediately an indisputable historic occurance in the wonderful world that’s Floggerland.

Arthur

This TV program is not a program of this guys says but of the MiG-29 creators, engineers test pilots even you can see Strizhi acrobatic pilots interviewed

In few words the Program is one of the best you can get because is a Russian program with MiG engineers, test pilots and Russian air force pilots participation with real MiG-29 video footage of early MiG-29 test program video

You can not get something better.

So it is not Floggerland what you are against but MAPO`s and Russia`s main stream media

Not to mention repeatedly disproven and/or imaginary ‘evidence’… Sigh.
While this topic has been flogged to death, i can think of a poster who should be :dev2:

I recomend you watch Udarnaja sila`s chapter about the MiG-29 you opinion will be worthless as an expert to Valery Meninsky and the Russian TV if you can not send them better evidence for their program beyond saying flogger land 😀 when they deal the MiG-29`s kill of the F-117

by the way they have several programs about the Yak-141 and Tu-142 that are ones of the best you can get.

Voennoe Delo has other excellent programs too

Iraqis achieved nearly all kills by surface-to-air weapons. Against Iran their air force did actually not excel. The Russians were unable to deliver adequate support in terms of advisers. The Soviets failed in this discipline not only in Iraq, but also in the Middle East 1967 and 1973 (and 1982). Even in Vietnam the picture did not look very favorable after all, while it still represents the best performance of Soviet fighter aircraft since 1953.

The shot-down of the F-117 is not due to overall skill of forces. Please, Flogger, by picking these kind of examples, falsiying the facts and calling all other people biased you make yourself a joke.

NATO had superior numbers. Don’t doubt it. I don’t want to hide anything. You asked the stupid question of the MiG-29s combat record, knowing that it only lost. It never made the difference. It didn’t perform better than a MiG-21 in the same role. No engagement since introduction of the MiG-29 can prove any ability. That is fact. What do these facts say about the aircraft? Not much.
Air Defense is a complicated system and the fighter used of much lower importance than most people think. The Russians took this into account by building the MiG-23 in large numbers. If your AD-system is bad, the best fighter in the world won’t help much.

NO i have not asked any thing foolish niether falsify facts, the overall superiority of the Western Fighters against the MiG-29 is basicly a fabrication, if you field a larger number of aircraft, AWACS, destroy the radar network, the oppositing force has few fourth generation fighters and besides you have AIM-120 well 4 MiG -29s is not a super score when they shot you down an F-117 and probably more.

Russia is not as a failure as you say, first in Vietnam the US lost, you are not considering Russian claims or Iraqi or Serbian you only give credit to US or Western claims, SAMs always have being the way to disguise kills in Air to Air there are air to air victories reported by Russia, Syria, Iraq and Serbia.

But if you always say the F-15 is a super fighter when faces Russian aircraft but in excersices even the `Panavia Tornado can beat it, if the claim it is english well you can say the panavia Tornado is an excellent interceptor but if you changed to MiG-29 no way.

For the Russians F-15s have been shot down and according to Russia an F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29, this was reported by several sources.

What ever you are smoking … quit.
R-73 was caracterised by germans to have a seeker in the AIM-9L categories. It is not a wonder weapon. Actually they consider it a flare addicted missile.

The F15 patrol downed 2 mig-29’s in a single engagement. Whant number superiority? The AWACS was to late in that engagement, F-15 pilots already aquired the Serbian planes without AWACS support.

US bought the Moldovan 29’s not because they needed to study them(they already study the Luftwaffe 29’s), but because those 29’s where nuke wired and to stop the aquisition by a foreign power.

That seems a Top Gun encounter, that is not correct NATO at any moment had more Jets than Serbia, same was in Iraq.

The F-15s had AWACS and all NATOS`s survaillance and radar assests to feed them information, that is a poor excuse to say we fielded more fighters but we were fair at war a pair of F-15C versus two MiG-29 you do not believe even that excuse.

By the way the Russian MAPO won`t service aircraft sell by non Russian sources remember what happened to Peru`s MiG-29, if Russia wants can sell MiG-29s to Iran or any rogue state

Su-30s are Strike Flankers.. Su-32 is Fullback or Platypus..
Super Flanker is the proposed name for Su-27M variants, ergo Su-35…

But undoutedly both are super Flankers, specially the SU-30MKI there is also the Su-35UB and that is basicly a Su-30MKI Super Flanker 😉

Uh, no. Only one was downed. The one they showed the wreckage of on TV. No B-2s were lost either.

SOC

In terms of confirmed kills by TV yes there is one F-117, but i want to ask you how could you be sure always the wreckages fell in Serb hands or in Serb held teritorry?

As a confirmed kill with unrefutable evidence you are right, as an admitted kill you are right, as a claim well there are more than 3 F-117 shot down.

Is it easy to confirm any of the other two kills if the US denies the losses and holds the wreckages? well it is not, if one is written off perhaps that was the MiG-29`s Kill that Yefim Gordon talks about.

Flogger,
You are off in your fantasy world again. No Yugolsav pilot made any claim against any F-117. Your claims of MiG-29 claiming Tornadoes is also dubious.
Colonel Dani Zoltan was the commander of the SA-3 unit that shot down F-117 82-806. It was only after the conflict that the alias used at the time was revealed. The Serbian alias ‘Gvozden Djukic’ had been used to describe the ethnic Hungarian commander in some propaganda articles. This was apparently in an effort to hide his ethnicity. It was the propaganda ghost writers and Russian articles that made ‘Gvozden Djukic’ a MiG-29 pilot.

This was the propaganda put out at the time:

“Lt.Col. Gvozden Djukic: “Suddenly I saw a dot of light in the sky, and I headed by aircraft towards it. I realized that I was doing a head-on attack. The first missile I fired against it struck it in that head-on course.”

Few hours later Gvozden Djukic (and the whole world) knew due to the TV coverage that his victim had been one of the -until that time- considered invincible stealth fighters F-117A Nighthawks. After that it was clear that the stealth fighter was neither invisible nor immune to the helmet-mounted gunsight of the MiG-29 and their missiles R-73 Archer .”

TJ

TEEJ

Interesting but i have to tell you the other side of the History, according to a Russian TV program i watched named “Udarnaja Sila” that talked about the MiG-29 claimed, the MiG-29 Fulcrum Shot down a F-117, consider this is a TV Program,: Yefim Gordon in His Book MiG-29 Fulcrum even claimed the Djuvic even recieved a medal by Slodoban Milosevic him self for his kill.

According to Gregory R. Copley who wrote in ” The International Strategies Studies Assosiation Journal”, (US) May, 1999; the US lost not one but three F-117, one of those was shot down by a MiG-29.

This was a US publication with access to “highly reputable sources”

The Serb Air Force contrary to your claims does not admitt only two aircraft as shot down.

Udarnaja Sila has interviews with Valery Menitsky and other people involved in the MiG-29 program and excellent footage by the way

Is that a joke ? I would expect to see such “competition” on Discovery Channel, but here ???

So what is you answer, the F-18E rules?

I think Algeria will recieve Super Flankers so it is getting popular and the US Navy only has F-18s now