I agree with matt, the original author of this thread has already shown what his opinion is and is extremely bias.
But my two cence, The quality of pilots is based largely upon training and equipment, if this is the best then the pilots likely will be also.
To claim that people who live under dictatorships are less innovative than those from ‘free’ societys is fundamentally flawed, just look at what came out of the soviet union and nazi germany.

I laugh how simple is this through out the west a feeling of superiority is in terms of high tech.

You say Russian claims of F-15 and F-16s kills and many in the west say the Russian lied, you say the Russian tech is better in aerodynamics and weaponry and you hear a tremendous response that is blasphemy.

In WWII the US considered the japanese tech as inferior in aircraft design.

Overstimating an enemy is common everywhere but certainly the Western mentality is bias and it was BIAS DURING THE COLD WAR CALLING ANY RUSSIAN/SOVIET WEAPON INFERIOR AS IT WAS BIAS AGAINST THE JAPANESE IN WWII

The reason is simply there was a political need to claim anything coming from a Comunist country should be inferior and worst than any thing coming from the superior economic system called capitalism

The quality of a pilot has more to do with training and the system he or she will operate in (i.e. GCI heavy or not) than it does with the politics behind his or her government. Pilots trained to operate in a GCI-heavy environment may, for example, not be given as much latitude in their operation of the aircraft, and therefore may not be as “fully” trained as they might like to be.

How many IZAF and Serbian MiG-29s were blown up on the ground? How many IZAF FULCRUMs ran off to Iran?

A baseline MiG-29S with the R-77 vs an F-16C with AMRAAMin a BVR fight? You don’t want to know the answer to that question.

That’s because the sum total of those two occurrences was 1, if you’re talking about the air-to-air arena. And why bother trying to comment on anything regarding Serbia when they insist they downed dozens of fighters and even a B-2A? If you want to talk about someone not speaking logically in this instance, look at Serbia, not the West.

In sustained turn and instantaneous turn rate both russian aircraft are better to the F-15 and F-16, same is in acceleration, WVR armament and HMS, modern MiG-29OBT and SU-30MKI are too advanced to any F-15 and F-16 in terms of aerodynamics and engine technology. in AoA both Russian fighter have excellent handling.

Serbia lost few MiG-29s and Iraq too, The F-15 and F-16s have mostly shoot down Su-17s, MiG-21s and MiG-23s and few MiG-25s.

The Idea the F-15 is supreme is just a product of the fact the US has fought with total supremacy in numbers and technology versus few MiG-29s.

The West generally does not acknowledges losses.

F-15s and F-16 have been lost in combat but only they admit SAM kills but no MiG kill that is certainly very suspicious 😀 .

:rolleyes:

Between the F-15 and F-16, the two aircraft have an A2A record of probably 150 to 1 (and even that one is questionable.)

The Flanker has a kill ratio of 4-0 (all against MiG-29s) and the MiG-29 has a record of 0-12.

There is NOTHING that proves the Flanker or Fulcrum to be better in anyway.

The F-15 and F-16 never have shot down 150 MiG-29s or Su-27s.

Serbia or Iraq had really few MiG-29s while the US fielded several hundred F-15s and F-16s in each war besides several hundred more Mirage 2000, Panavia Tornadoes, Mirage f1 F-18s and F-14s.

The Iraqi lost less than 10 MiG-29s and Serbia too.

Field 100 MiG-29s versus 100 F-16 and tell me who rules having both air forces AMRAAM and R-77s

The West hardly acknowledges any Iraqi or Serb kill.

The pilots with the most “kills” where Germans and Japanese. Whether they were the best depended on the year of the war. They simply fought until they were killed and therefore tacked on huge kill numbers. American and British pilots were rotated after tours to train other pilots.

The Japanese skill level fell off sharply after Guadalcanal. Before the Solomons and especially before Midway, there are historians who say that the IJN pilots (both attack and fighter) of Nagumo Strike force had legimate claims as the best squadrons in the world. Carrier pilots were and are by definition trained longer than land-based ones.

But they were an elite group of several hundred. When they were worn away after Guadacanal (Midway destroyed Nagumo’s veterans and Guadalcanal grounded away the rest,) Japan had almost nothing.

People forget that the Japanese created superlative aircraft in the last years of the war — Ki-100, Ki-84, the N1K2, etc. — but atrocious pilots.

Germany had great pilots but their edge over Americans and British were slight to non-existent depending on the year of the war. By the end, the Luftwaffe was grounded to bits. Germany’s kill record came mostly against Russia. So did Finland’s.

In fact, Finland used what was considered the WORST US plane in the Pacific War, the Brewster Buffalo, to create 16 or so aces and hundreds of kills.

Argentina’s attack pilots were actually too good. At the Falklands, the A-4 pilots pressed their attacks so close that there were a dozen hits where bombs went in one side of British ships and out the other before exploding. They had armor-piercing bombs that were incorrectly fused for the situation. The Brits could have lost far more ships than the two kills by exocets.

Germany had excelent pilots but you are right in the western front the Luftwaffe was uncapable to beat the Us and England.

That was a matter of numbers, in Russian was different because Germany destroyed many I-16s on the ground, but once Russia got better fighters they reversed the course of the war.

Germany`s Luftwaffe fought in Holland, Belgium, Greece, Spain, France, Poland, Yugoslavia, England, Norway, Russia, Ukraine, Libya and few words Germany fought many air forces and defeated most of them.

Same is Japan.

England during the battle of England hardly could rotate pilots.

One of the reason the US pilots rotated pilots is simply the sheer numbers they had of aircraft.
neverthelss hardened battle pilots in the Luftwaffe were good pilots.

In the Korean war experience gave to the americans some edge against less experienced north Korean and Chinese pilots

experience is quit important to give the skills needed.

:rolleyes: Check out the kill records of the F-15 and F-16 and then look at the battle record of the MiG-29 and SU-27, please.

The question is simple what aircraft have better performance and agility? what aircraft have the best missiles?

What you are saying is because Iraq faced the US the MiG-29 is inferior the the F-15.

In General Iraq was as strong versus the US as Poland was in 1939 when it faced Germany.

A MiG-29M and a MiG-29SMT are excellent fighters, same the Su-27SK or Su-30MKI, but if you have few of them and face lots of F-15 you have no chances.

Yugoslavia(Serbia) and Iraq facing the US had no chances even fighting with few MiG-29.

Same was Germany using very few of the magnificent He-162 or Me-262 against larger numbers of P-51s.

The thread did say “commie dictatorships.” Nazi Germany is a uber-efficient far right system where the vast majority of people within the state was incredbly free. The people not “free” in Nazi Germany were jews, gypsies and other minorities.

In Russia or Mao China, it was the direct opposite of Germany. The vast majority of people were not free.

At any rate, the Luftwaffe’s high kill ratio can almost entirely against the Russian air force. In the West, the Germans were grounded to bits in the air. By the time of D-Day, Germany could not even put up a single squadron to protect its panzers. If the Germans had any air cover at all, the Allies would have been grounded into meat patty underneath treads barely 10 miles inland (outside the range of effective naval fire – though 8 inch cruiser and 14 inch and up battleship guns could reach even further.)

The overwhelming evidence is that buckaroos depends on freedoms and the rule of law. Communist states restrict personal freedom and kills any hope of enterprise. They are ALWAYS poorer than freer neighbors.

Any nation that is poorer than a communist nation is NOT a free nation. Remember that communist nations aren’t the only kind of unfree societies. There are a variety of feudal systems. Even worse societies are those like serfdom (which led to communism in the first place) and castes.

Russia(Former Soviet Union) is an example of a comunist nation able to have good equipment without being a capitalist nation.

The Su-27 is better than the F-15, the MiG-29 than the F-16 and F-18.
Science and technology is the base for equipment, science technology and equipment will be available if a government spends the national resources either human or natural in the enterprise of building high military technology.

Russia and China are two examples of communist nations that have high tech equipment independently of their social systems.

Brazil even having an economy as big as Russia has not equipment as powerful as those comunist nations.

The amount of money or resources a nation spends in military high tech, purchases development and research it wll determine the quality of it`s equipment and the general state of their air force.

The highest scoring pilots in history came from a totalitarian society—Nazi Germany. The highest scoring pilots from the Allies came from the Soviet Union.

Not at all. When you enter the military, you are stripped and disassembled completely, then reassembled and rebuilt into a lean mean fighting machine. Regardless of ideology, you are reconditioned to follow orders, orders and nothing but orders. A military isn’t a democracy, and yes, you’re still a drone. In a way, you are brought into a level field.

However, wealthier societies is able to afford more resources into training pilots. Does not matter if the society is free or not, it all comes down to the buckaroos.

Germany had good pilots because it had good science, started the war in 1936 in Spain and fought lots of obsolete air forces.

The US in 2006 is in the same situation, in 2006 the US and Israel have the best equipment, lots of experience in combat, and have fought air forces with less advanced technology.

It is technology, and experience what determines how good is an air force and therefore how good is a pilot.

Only free societies that have wealthy economies and have air planes 😀

True. It is even more evident among a free country’s business class than just pilots.

That is why free societies (with one glaring exception which proves the rule) are in general very rich and not only produce good pilots but also lots of first rate equipment for their pilots from their wealth.

On the other hand, a country that is very poor is probably not a truely free society no matter what it attempts to call itself. Poverty is a symptom of oppression and inequality. No man chooses to be poor and unless extremely untalented would not be poor if he had true freedom.

If a so-called “free” nation is among the poorest states in the world then it is not a free nation. The majority of such a nation is oppressed by other means than the right to vote. Lack of education, lack of upward mobility and lack of nutrition are signs of lack of freedom. Poverty is the greatest sign that there is no real freedom.

Therefore, a truly free society should NEVER be poorer than a commie or unfree neighbor. Freedom will allow talented people to create wealth and well-being for the society as a whole which in turns produce good aircraft and good pilots.

Truly free nations would never buy commie MiGs and Sukhois. They buy from the West or produce their own. They would never have allied themselves with the country Reagan called the “Evil Empire.” You will never see real free state like Australia, Japan or Canada fly MiGs.

That said, communist nations could produce good pilots in the same way they produce astronauts, ballerinas and athletes. Training in elite groups and from an early age.

Nationality does not determne how good is a pilot same is what kind of social and economic system a person has been raised.

good pilots are from nations who have good equipment and more hours flying in operational service either at war and combat or in peaceful training.

In WWII the Best pilots were German followed by the Japanese from far behind.
Germany had the longest combat service and the best equipment in WWII so it is not rare to see they have the best pilots and the best scores were achieved by german pilot aces.
In 2006 the best pilots must be American and Israeli but only because of their equipment and combat experience, not because of nationality

Equipment quality is determine by the state of the science and technology a nation has, equipment is really what determines a pilot skills in combat.

An average pilot will be better in an F-15 than in an F-4E, same will be an F-22 with respect a F-8.

Strategy is determined by the equipment numbers and types.

Argentina and Iraq had good pilots but in general they lost their respective wars due to the less advanced equipment and lesser numbers in high tech weaponry.