Obi Wan RussellPrefer my own modification though it’s not based on the latest design: The traditional British red and white centreline looks so much better than the US yellow and white everyone else uses!:diablo::D;)
Obi Wan RussellI don’t believe the two remaining Invincibles will go with the Harriers, their actual raison d’etre is still the ASW helicoters they were originally built to carry. Also the AEW (ASaC) Sea Kings and their eventual successors. Fleet Air defence is now de facto in the hands of the T45 DDGs, and no matter how good they are they still work better with some over the horizon warning. They can also re role t the LPH mission at short notice. The crews of the two CVS are scheduled to transfer directly to the CVFs, including deck crews, as they enter service providing a smooth transition. Losing the Harriers is just one string to their bow, they can do so much more. Their fate was effectively de-coupled from that of the Harrier force some years ago, as they have managed to get by without them. Also it would be somewhat embarrassing for the government to admit we need the new carriers, but can afford to lose the existing ones prematurely.
Carriers arent just about jets…;)
Obi Wan RussellHarrierless perhaps, but not carrierless. Lusty and Ark have managed to remain very useful and busy ships without the Harriers for the last few years, after all they don’t JUST deploy strike aircraft. They are also the fleet’ primary platforms for deploying ASW Merlins and ASaC Sea Kings. Add to that their ability to switch at short notice to th LPH role and the fact that their crews (including Flight deck crews) are currently scheduled to transfer directly to the Queen Elizabeths as they complete justifies their retention. They can also embark allies Harriers as required so provide ‘spare deck’ capability to joint ops, and the USMC has already shown they prefer to deploy from our decks than their own ‘Gators’.
Obi Wan RussellThe dates quoted for the carrier’s ISD are wrong. HMS Queen Elizabeth is due to commission in 2016 not 2014, and HMS Prince of Wales will follow in 2018, not 2016. Under current plans the first ship was to embark Harriers for her first commission and that time was also expected to cover the first JFH sqns transition to the Lightning. If theswitch to the F-35C is confirmed, the first sqns can be expected to form close to the completion date of the second carrier, allowing time for her to be fited with cats and wires during the construction period. QE can recieve these at her first refit shortly thereafter.
Obi Wan RussellWhat is the current size of the helicopter budget, and how would you exactly go about cutting a billion from the helicopter budget?
How about stopping Prince Andrew and other Royal ‘pilots’ from using military choppers for private jollies?:diablo::eek:
I’ll get me coat…;)
Obi Wan RussellAgreed 110%!;):D:diablo:
Obi Wan RussellShe’s still afloat ….
They didn’t go off…:eek:
Obi Wan RussellThe bit about submarines being scrapped is probably a case of journalistic ignorance, as we haven’t scrapped any of our nuclear powered submarines yet, as far back as Dreadnought. They’re all still laid up awaiting someone to figure out a means of disposal that the lefties won’t rise up on their hind legs to protest about. As for the ’22/23′ frigates being withdrawan, he probably just got his type numbers mixed up. I have no doubt the Navy will ‘offer up’ the older ships of the fleet, the five T42s and the four T22s in order to preserve the newer ships (T23s and T45s). As for the Amphibs, I hope the worst that happens is a ‘Fearless/Intrepid scenario’ where half the ships are put into maintained reserve and rotated back to the fleet every four to five years. Cuts costs significantly but retains capability. Disposing of ships barely a third of the way through their lives when they are also amongst the busiest and most valuable ships in the fleet is insanity. 😡
Obi Wan RussellActually I did them some time ago, just been waiting for the right time to post them!;):D
Obi Wan RussellIf the America class is optomised for Air operations especially for the F-35B & CV-22 is the revised Wasp design the best for the job.
Just wondering if they should really look at incorporating features from the UKs CVF design to improve the potential of these air operations.
Fit sponsons to increase deck parking and aircraft movement without fowling the actual flight deck area. Utilise the sponsons for Vertical landing keeping the flight line clear for F-35 runs. Landing spots on the sponson can be configured to vent out the excess heat without an adverse effect on the decks below. Add ski-jump & JBD to improve F-35B performance. extended flight deck over the stern so the B’s can do a rolling landing which appears to be the preferred option for carry back.
Yes i know the USN would have kittens complaining that it might threaten their super carriers, but the traditional LHD layout is not really efficient for flight ops with the new airgroups due to be adopted by the USMC. The inovations are there and the benefits obvious, it just appears that they could do better than just the bog standard LHD layout with a ship which is focused on supporting the Marine airgroup
Do you mean something like this?
As the USN is only intending to buy the first two or three America class in the non-well deck version before reverting to well-deck versions, these first two or three ships can be dedicated to F-35B ops as their primary mission. The USN will not be short of amphibs to carry troops and helos in addition to these ships. The argument that the jets will have to take second place to the troop carrying helos doesn’t apply here, they will carry troops and helos but as an additional force to those carried by other LHA/LHDs in the force.
Obi Wan RussellFor me the bottom line is does the UK have enough funds to stand up the FAA under RN control – or pilots?
The RN/FAA needs the RAF online for CVF to function properly.
The FAA has more pilots than planes at the moment, remember they were due to stand up 801NAS this year before the january cuts. Those 12 pilots are now in the US training to fly the F/A-18… 800NAS meanwhile (redesignated from the NSW) is currently equipped with 12 Harrier GR9s and several more pilots than needed, whilst the JFH OCU 4(R)sqn is also part RN manned. We are five to eight years away from needing to enlarge even this cadre of FAA pilots, plenty of time to ramp up numbers in the training pipeline.
Obi Wan RussellYeap the X-35B proved the concept to with the JSF competition. With hindsight i suppose they should have really looked at then using the X-35B’s to develop the F-35B STOVL flight evelope. Although the F-35B is a different aircraft the basics would be the same and issues like the heat footprint, parts reliability and tolerances could have been determined earlier. Too late now….:mad:
Completely agree. After the X-35 won the JSF contest I was stunned to hear the prototypes were to be retired to museums. They could have been used to gain a headstart on F-35 development until the new prototypes were completed, keeping the test pilots current if nothing else. Of course there were differences between the X-‘ and F-35s but also a lot of similarities. Oh well, water under the bridge now…:(
Obi Wan RussellCould the scenario be to build QE then keep the yards busy with MARS instead of PoW?
Also, in the Torygraph today (I put a link to the article in the SDSR thread on the main board) they suggest that they will consider smaller carriers – sounds daft to me, as do most of the Torygraph stories – but could it be a sign that they are moving away from strike carriers to building LHD’s?
MARS is no substitute for CVFs in terms of shipbuilding. Under EU law any such orders would have to be put out to tender around the EU, so the chances of the UK yards winning the orders becomes very slim indeed. This is missing the point anyway, the only reason for cancelling the ships would be to claw back money (personally I don’t see the government getting anything more than loose change back in that event), so then we place other orders to keep the yards open? where are the savings? it would make the whole excercise far more expensive than just building the carriers. As I said earlier, by the time they enter service the financial crisis will be well behind us, so for the time being the CVF project should be seen as a long term investment that helps support the economy (rather than putting tens of thousands of skilled workers on the dole). It’s the only game in town for UK shipbuilding for the next four to five years.
LHD is a non starter for much the same reasons. It’s too late to change to smaller but just as expensive ships when a quarter of the budget has already been spent. Don’t confuse size with cost.
Obi Wan RussellPerhaps if there had been a “Flying Futon” testbed for the F35B lift system, people would be more comfortable with the level of risk it entails!:D
I’m pretty sure there was. It was called the X-35B. A lot better than a Flying Bedstead/Futon! It had wings and other stuff as well!;):D:diablo:
Obi Wan RussellIt’s not called HMS Queen Elizabeth II, the first ship of the class will be called HMS Queen Elizabeth. The QE2 was a liner, and she is still afloat out in the gulf as a floating hotel. So many seem to have missed the point that the contract for the carriers is a single primary contract for two ships, not two separate contracts. The contracts took several years to iron out, and as they are the only thing keeping the British warship building industry afloat for the next few years bridging the gap between the end of the T45 program and the beginning of the T26 (still at least four years away from main gate), cancellation of any part of the contract puts the UK out of the warship building business permanently. Right now, the cheapest option is to just go ahead and build them, and the bulk of the costs of POW will occur once we have climbed out of the financial crisis. We are not bankrupt, we just put our money into the banks, and we will get it back around 2015. POW isn’t due in service until 2018… coincidentally, the next general election is due around 2015 and if the economy is still in such a bad shape the ConDems will be out on their ears. Expect some financial miracles to occur in 2014 at the latest…;)
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