They are testing the F-35C, and soon they will be testing it with air under the wheels too. Have patience:
http://www.jsf.mil/gallery/gal_photo_sdd_f35ctest.htm

I remember seeing Mr Sprey on a documentary a few years ago stating that the Harrier familt of aircraft was the most disasterous, useless and dangerous military aircraft ever produced. He said everyone would be better off buying ctol supersonic interceptors instead. Argentina followed his advice prior to 82. The RN disagreed with him. Guess who won? If that man told me it was a sunny day I would get my umberella out. 😉

Didn’t the Gray report say that if no new equipment is orderd now, the MOD books still won’t balance until 2028?

They REALLY need to increase defence spending, or turn the forces into a coastal defence force.

A coastal defence force isn’t a viable option for the UK. If you are going down that road, may as well abolish the armed forces in their entireity and make some real savings!:eek:

We are not a landlocked country in the middle of Europe, we are an Island Nation dependent on seabourne trade with the whole planet. Our National interests are Global, not local. The overseas aid budget is comparable to the defence budget, but arguably less effective. If serious efforts were made to eradicate waste in the welfare and health budgets that in itself would free up enough money to double the defence budget, that’s the magnitude of the difference…;)

I was under the impression that the entire FA2 fleet was retired. And aren’t there a few GR7s lying around?

Yes they are ‘retired’, apart from a sqns’ worth (8-10 F/A-2s plus a couple of two seaters) of them at Culdrose at the SFDO dummy deck which are pretty much in full working order, for ‘realism’! Plenty of spare parts on the shelves too (older airframes were stripped down when retired). The GR7/9s are all required to support JFH, no surplus airframes I’m afraid. Both ours and the USMC Harriers will be out of airframe hours by the time they are replaced by the Lightning so no point buying them second hand. I was suggesting Chile use Invincible as a Helo carrier initially then perhaps buy F-35Bs at a later date. Alternatively, they could ask BAe to manufacture a small run of Harriers bespoke. Probably still cheaper than F-35Bs…

At this point, Invincible has been pretty well stripped for spares. Just as important, there would be no Harriers of any vintage available for sale.

Well the Invincible class were designed on the principle of ‘upkeep by replacement’ which means the ‘stripped for spares’ description is both true and completely misleading. Everything that has been removed was designed to be easily removed and reinstalled if need be. The ships Olympus GTs were drawn from a comon pool and replaced regularly anyway, as Invincible was de activated in 2005 her engines and indeed most of her equipment such as radars and Goalkeeper CIWS were removed and returned to the ‘pool’ for use in other ships. It can be returned if necessary. Modern warships are a lot different from older generations such as Steam Turbine powered vessels, which retained a single set of engines throughout their entire lives for example. Her hull has been sealed and dehumidified, a process completed some time ago. Like most modern warships, she was designed to operate completely airtight to protect the crew from radioactive fallout, and that also helps with the dehumidification process as the dehumidifiers don’t need to be kept running once the internal atmosphere has reached the desired (lack of) moisture level.

Harriers are not necessarily desired for her air group. Helicopters can meet all the needs of the Chilean Navy at the present, though the possibility of aquiring F-35Bs remains, however remote (they do fit on an Invincible’s lifts and can be operated without too much difficulty, according to the RN themselves).

As we are into calculations for takeoffs, I thought this might be of use. I get asked to explain the ski jump regularly, since many seem unable to grasp the point. When you leave the end of the ramp, you will only be at about 80 knots and you aren’t actually flying yet. But you are still accelerating and the ramp has converted some of your forward momentum into vertical thrust so you gain altitude whilst you are accelerating. Before you reach the top of the arc you will have reached true flying speed (about 130knots, and you will be at about 200ft). If there is a problem on takeoff such as engine failure, the pilot will have several extra seconds to decide what to do (eg eject) compared to the flat trajectory of a catapult launch. In the latter case a pilot coming off the end of a catapult with a serious malfunction will be lucky to have two seconds to join the Martin Baker appreciation society. EMALS offers the possibility of combining the two systems, gaining the extra safety of the ski jump and the extra payload of the catapult…;)

Clearly guys,
the possibility of having 2 large aircraft carrier (65000 tons, 280 meters) …… with only 50 aircraft (each with 14/18 F-35 🙁 + spares)…. is a dramatic huge mistake.
(may be one of the biggest naval mistakes of the 21st century in terms of cost/effectivness)

and the conversion of one of this big hull to a helicopter carrier were a even much more dramatic mistake 😀

For me:

– Or the British cancel 1 of two vessels (or sells it to Indian;)….), and the other were equiped with a fully airwing of 28/36 F-35…

– Or they cancel the whole program (with probably 2 billion £ deals penalties:rolleyes:), and modified plan to acquire 2 large LHD*** like the Spanish or Korean LHD design (and they will be able to be fully equiped with F-35 ….. and have had less to buy. .. so they can make cost savings)

***
British LHD design derived from spanish BPE (27/33000 tons, 230/240 meters, with 8/12 F-35 & 12/14 helicopters + troops, véhicles, landing crafts)
or
British LHD design derived from south korean Dokhdo design (improved 27/33000 tons, 230/240 meters, with 9/14 F-35, 12/18 helicopters + troops + vehicles + landing crafts)

(PS: the US LHD design were VERY TOO EXPENSIVE in manpower term….more than 1000 sailor:rolleyes:)

:rolleyes:
😉

NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN!

The plan has been from the start to achieve an Initial Operational Capability (IOC) of two carriers and one full air group, so that whilst one carrier is in refit the other is ‘on call’. If both are available for sea duty the second can be deployed as a LPH without modification, as the LPH role is included in the basic design from day one. Nothing will be gained by cancellation of either or both at this point, and certainly the penalties will wipe out any possibility of an alternative class of flat tops. Additional aircraft (F-35Bs) can ordered later to equip a second full air group if necessary, and probably will. The timescale for these will be in the region of 2016-2020 onwards, when the current (2009) financial problems will just be a distant memory.

British Amphibious doctrine has no place for LHDs, we have enough well deck equipped ships as it is. They are for second wave landings, once the beach head has been secured by first wave, which will be landed by helicopter from an LPH. Even the US is turning away from LHDs after many years experience, favouring a split of LPD/LSDs and non-well deck equipped America class LHAs, effectively LPHs in all but name. When it comes to major fleet units like Carriers and amphibs, the UK will not be buying foreign for the forseeable future as there will be too much political pressure to build them domestically. A lot of MP’s jobs depend on it, and that will simply be the deciding factor…

We’d still be better off with ‘son of Ocean’ than a modified Mistral, because the latter will have to be so majorly redesigned to include British systems and engines for example, that we might as well just design a new ship of our own. If and when an order for such a vessel becomes a realistic prospect (about 2016-2018 is my guess, though possibly deferred to 2020 with Ocean being run on), then there is no way it would be allowed to go abroad. BVT will lobby hard for it and politically it would be a brave party in government that gave the order to any yard outside the UK. Ocean wasn’t a perfect design by any means, but was good enough, and the lessons have been learned. It makes no sense to throw away that experience and buy foreign, which would then have to be (expensively) altered to suit UK requirements anyway. So my guess is two 30,000tonne enlarged Ocean type vessels (the second unit to relieve Argus, probably to be manned by the RFA in the ‘hospital ship’ role most of the time) to enter service in the early 2020s.