Obi Wan RussellHi Obi Wan. I love the deck plan. Perhaps a before and after would be good. I’ve tried modifying your deck plan to add extensions to the flight deck port and starboard that cover over the areas shaded in green and add the SPN 35 radome aft of the island. If I can figure out how to master the drawing packages on my machine I’ll post it. Meanwhile keep up the good work, I look forward to more.
I left those areas free to mount at least some self defence weaponry. I plated over the forward gun positions to extend the flightdeck and increase internal volume (ie messdecks etc). I did fit a SPN 35 to my model come to think of it…
Here’s the original plan view I modified, plus a speculative ‘Super Victorious’ type CVA based on the original model and just to round things off, a Phantomised HMS Eagle!:D
Obi Wan RussellWell here’s a quick plan of the flight deck layout of that model I modified. On the model itself I had the split JBDs of Ark Royal, but when I drew this plan a couple of years ago I gave it US style JBDs just to see how they would look:
Obi Wan RussellHey Its good to see this particular thread updated. Speaking of updated have you visited the Buccaneer website recently Bager? Part 1 of the Carrier ops section has been written.
I like the photo manips of Centaur Obi Wan. Any chance of doing one(s) showing a ‘Phantomised’ Victorious?
I’ll get onto it! Actually when I was younger I modified an Airfix model of HMS Victorious to Phantomise it! This involved moving the forward elevator further over to starboard, adding two 199ft BS5s with Bridle catchers and water cooled JBDs, and extending the parking areas at fly three and Fly four. No computer back then so had to do these things in 3D!
Obi Wan RussellThe Illustrious class (Victorious was one)… certainly not, as the hangar floor on Vicky was not far enough above the new full-load waterline.
It isdoubtful that one could be worked into a Colossus/Majestic either.
However… I have often wondered why the designers of Hermes’ modifications felt it was a good idea to put both elevators where they would interfere with landing operations.
Surely, moving the aft elevator to the deck-edge behind the island and leaving the fore elevator on the centerline would result in more efficient, smoother, and faster launch/recovery operations.
Even if the fore elevator had to be moved a bit to the starboard to allow the port bow cat to be as long as needed, and the starboard bow cat moved to the angle (where it could be longer as well) this would be a better arrangement… especially as it would minimize wave effects on the deck-edge elevator (by moving it aft quite a bit).
I really wish the RN had done that with Hermes and at least one of the other 3.
Agreed. I wish they had been more adventurous when refitting Centaur in 56-58, if they had kept her in dock for another six months a fully angled deck could have been installed, providing a larger deck park at fly one. As it was, when operating Sea Vixens, it was only possible to park about five or six aircraft in fly 1 (were aircraft that had just landed on were taxied to) so recovery operations would have to stop at that point until those aircraft could be struck down to the hangar. Adding an angled deck sponson wouldn’t have been difficult, and needn’t have been as deep as that fitted to Hermes, which was also providing support for her deck edge lift and it’s machinery, so something more on the lines of the lightweight structure fitted to Victorious. Going a step further a larger structure could support a steam catapult in the waist position (replacing the starboard cat). This all adds time and expense to her refit, and she was only upgraded as a stop gap for the sisxties as it was anticipate the rest of the fleet would always have one carrier in deep refit during this period (Victorious 1950-58, Eagle 1959-64, Hermes 1964-66 and Ark Royal 1967-70).
below are a couple of photo manips to illustrate my point plus a shot of Centaur in 64 to show how crowded the ship could be with large aircraft like the Vixen on deck:
Obi Wan RussellSuperb shots Obi Wan, I agree the Vic was the best looking carrier we ever had. Pity about her premature end.
Capt Eric “Winkle” Brown in his book -Wings On My Sleeve- made the following statement about this episode;- “The year 1969 found the Fleet Arm absorbing the sad truth that the labour government was hell-bent on inflicting irreparable damage on naval aviation,for it had decided to axe yet another fleet carrier after CVA 01.It was now the turn of HMS Victorious,which had gone into dock in 1967 for a major refit, during which it suffered a minor fire in the galley. On that flimsy excuse it was paid off in 1968 and was earmarked for the ship breakers yard”.
His book also contains a photo of an 801 squadron Buccaneer S2 in all over dark sea gray, call sign 234 with Victorious code letter “V” on the fin. 801 never embarked on the Vic with this colour scheme.
It is possible the photo is of an aircraft preparing to embark for the cancelled final commission of Victorious. Her air group (893 Vixens, 801 Buccs, 814 Wessex and 849A Gannets) were working up ready to embark later in the year and the photo possibly dates from this period. After Victorious was ‘binned’ by the Labour government, her place was taken by Hermes which was also undergoing a small refit. Hermes air group at the time (892 Vixens, 809 Buccs, 826 Wessex and 849B Gannets were further back in their training cycle so Victorious’ air group were switched to Hermes, as indeed was Victorious complement and the ship made ready for sea at the earliest opportunity so that there would be no gap in the deployments. 892 and 809 spent a couple of years providing display teams for air shows then in 1969 892 re equipped with Phantoms, whilst 809 increased in size from six to fourteen aircraft ready to embark in the newly refitted Ark Royal.
Obi Wan RussellWhat was the diameter of the radar dish in the Phantom and how big a dish could have been fitted in the Buccaneer (assuming an enlarged nose).
One of the last three Buccs delivered in 77 which went to the MOD(PE) for trials work was fitted with the Tornado GR1 nose and avionics. this may give some idea of what could be achieved. The pseudo naval colour scheme is harder to explain, as the Navy had switched to all over dark sea grey ten years before this aircraft was built, and no naval aircraft had fin flashes either
Obi Wan RussellAnyway, back on topic as this thread is about HMS Victorious, here’s some pics of one of the most beautiful ships ever to serve with Grey Funnel Cruises:
Obi Wan RussellObi Wan, have you any data on the date of the last flight of an S1? Also did an S1 ever fly in RAF camouflage?
The S1s were last flown in 1970 AFAIK when the last examples were withdrawn from service with 736NAS. 803NAS, the other user of S1s at Lossiemouth was disbanded in december 1969. The two sqns pooled their aircraft and carried side numbers in the 600 series. The S1s were withdrawn because of maintenance issues with the Gyron Junior engines leading to a poor availability rate and some crashes. No S1 ever served with the RAF, or flew in RAF camo, though several preserved examples are in RAF colours. This because they were taken on by museums at a time when no S2s were available (ie late 70s/early 80s). The only ‘service’ with the RAF that any S1 saw was as ground instructional airframes, as seen in the last pic. These aircraft retained their Navy camoflage but lost their sqn insignia, ‘Royal Navy’ titling and side numbers, and were allocated four digit numbers ending with the letter M (ground instructional airframes used by the Navy had the suffix A). A number of Sea Vixens were also passed to the RAF in the 70s for Ground instructional use, and recieved similar treatment to their paintwork though they gained new two digit side numbers unrelated to their previous Navy ones.
Obi Wan RussellObi Wan, your remark about the Buccs coming out of maintenance having a six in one chance of going back to the RN. Have you taken into account the following two points.
No airframe with a serial after XV869 ever served with the Navy!
No aircraft equipped with a bomb door tank ever served with the Navy!
I think all the S2B aircraft were fitted with this mod. The S2C/S2D aircraft never had this fitted. We had great fun on 809 removing and installing the bomb bay tank when a change of roll was required! You would normally end up soaked in and stinking of avcat.
Incidentally Buccaneer XV333 an aircraft I worked on in 1976 (809) is now in the fleet air arm museum, in the colours of 801 squadron which it wore 1969. However it has a bomb door tank fitted! This would have been installed sometime after 1978 when the aircraft was converted from an S2D to an S2B for RAF service.
Yes I did take this into account. Prior to the Bomb door tank installation the RAF/FAA Bucc fleet was mostly interchangeable. The last 43 Buccs off the line were ordered for the RAF (and the last three of those went to the MOD(PE) for trials) The origin of the S2A/S2B designation was to differentiate between ex Navy airframes (S2A) and new build for the RAF (S2B). On this basis no S2B served with the Navy, but later in the 70s the designations were changed with the advent of the Martel missile, aircraft fitted to launch the Martel were given the S2B designation whilst those not converted were S2As. The Navy’s Buccs recieved the parallell designations S2C (non martel) and S2D (Martel capable). The S2Cs were usually fitted out as tankers or recce aircraft. AFAIK no Bucc fitted with a bomb bay door was ever deck landed, most likely because of the reduced clearance under the aircraft when landing on.
Obi Wan RussellOWR: odd that the remaining S1s were not upgraded to S2 standard.
(similarly, Hunter F.4 junked just as supplies of F.6 for retread/export expired: assertions that HSAL “did not know” that big-Avon could be shoe-horned in.)
Re-engining is never fun (see Spey 201 into F-4) and maybe only CFM-56/KC-135/DC-8 ever worked. I offer 2 reasons for not retreading S.1:
– in late-1950s MoS believed UK to be bereft of general understanding of the intake:N1 interface, and that only 1 scientist at RAE Bedford was fit for this purpose: he, it was, that did the inflatable intake on P.1127. See compressor stall, Swift/Hunter, to understand why they took this position. Just too hard to carve a fat intake onto S.1, easier to build anew. And/or:
– (Hunter F.4 production and) NA.39 R&D had been part US DoD (MSP)-funded. Maybe (I don’t know) S.1 production had also been US-part-funded. All too hard to carve up hulls not wholly-owned.
It wasn’t for lack of knowledge about how to do it, the prototype S2 was a re engined S1 anyway. The only difference between the S1 and the S2 was the engines and their intakes, and once the S2 entered service it would have been straightforward to convert the remaining S1s.
Obi Wan RussellObi Wan, As you point out the Bucc’s in your photos are reserve a/c for 809. They must have come out of storage for the air show(s) they are attending. The lack of under wing pylons and slipper tanks also points to this. I can identify them as S2C/D (the earlier S2 prior to 1973 can be visually identified by having two aerials of the same size on the spine) aircraft by the larger front aerial on the spine. Wonder why the letter “R” (Ark Royal code letter) has been left off the tail fin? It’s not as if 809 could deploy to another carrier post ’73!
As far as I know, the Buccs lacked Arks deck code R and side numbers on the nose because they were on charge to the RAF’s 237OCU, and the RAF didn’t use the same side number system as the FAA nor did they use deck codes. These would only be aplied to the aircraft if andd when they transferred to 809. Somewhat petty on the part of the RAF but there you go. Interestingly, the FJ sqns aboard Ark Royal used ranges of side numbers for their aircraft that exceeded the number of aircraft allocated to them. 892NAS used 001 to 014, though they only had 12 aircraft (013 was used), whilst 809NAS used 020 to 036, despite only 14 aircraft at any given time. 849Bflight used 040 for it’s COD4 and 041 to 044 for it’s AEW3s, 824NAS used 050 to 055 for it’s six Sea King HAS1s and the ship’s flight of two Wessex HAS 1s used for plane guard SAR were coded 046 and 047. After 1973 the COD4 Gannet was replaced by an extra Sea King, taking the Gannet’s code 040.
As far as I know 801 was the only squadron to take the Bucc s2 on board in this colour scheme. However I have seen a shot of some 809 squadron aircraft on the Hermes some in all over dark sea gray and one or two in dark sea gray/white.
It’s possible the Grey and White aircraft in the picture you describe are from the HQ sqn 803NAS, which in 1967 deployed four aircraft from the UK to Hermes in the Indian ocean to demonstrate the RNs ability to reinforce it’s carriers deployed overseas at short notice. 803 was based at Lossiemouth until december 1969 when it was disbanded and during this time drew on a common pool of aircraft with 736, although individual aircraft were marked up as either one sqn or the other. Both sqns operated the few remaining S1s until 1969 when they were finally withdrawn because of serviceability problems with the Gyron Junior engines. In fact this was the second retirement for the S1s as they had been withdrawn in 66 once sufficient S2s were available, but once the decision had been made to transfer the Buccs to the RAF six S1s were taken out of storage in 67 to provide enough airframes for the extra workload. More were reactivated for 803NAS which was reformed as the Buccaneer HQ and trials sqn so both sqns had a mixed pool of S2s and S1s. During the seventies several Buccaneers switched back and forth between the FAA and RAF as they were technically drawn from a common fleet. Aircraft would typically spend 18 months serving with a sqn then be rotated back for deep maintenance, and once completed would be re issued to a frontline sqn as required. Thus Buccs coming out of maintenance had a one in six chance of being issued back to the RN for 809NAS.
NB. Several Buccaneer S1 survive aoround the country’s museums, but some have been preserved in RAF camouflage. No S1 Buccaneer ever served with the RAF although as mentioned earlier, a number of RAF crews were trained on the S1s with 736NAS. It has always struck me as odd that the remaining S1s were not upgraded to S2 standard, after all it would have been a straightforward matter of re engining them with RR Speys. The prototype S2 was in fact a converted S1. All other systems eg avionics were identical. Later in the seventies there was a lack of airframes due to the wing spar fatigue problem which caused the RAF to disband 216sqn, only recently formed to take over 809s former aircraft. If the remaining fleet of S1s had been converted in the late 60s there would have been a larger fleet to draw on in the first place, at least an extra twenty aircraft. Production of the S1 had totalled 40 production standard plus 19 NA39 pre production aircraft, most of the latter had been brought up to S1 standard and issued to frontline sqns. Of these a large number had been lost in accidents (about 18 by 1970, mostly engine related) whilst several of the early NA39s were scrapped at the end of the test program from 1964 onwards. Also one S1 was dumped off the stern of Ark Royal in 1974 for a flight safety film! Of the survivors at least twenty to thirty aircraft could have been upgraded to S2 standard to increase the overall pool, allowing the RAF to still have their desired five frontline sqns plus OCU and the Navy could have retained 800NAS in commission (yes part of my cunning plan to keep Eagle in service…)
Obi Wan RussellFurther to my post above, when I joined the RN unit at RAF Honington in August 1974 all bar one aircraft were in RAF camouflage 237 OCU markings with the addition of a naval style crown in stick on dayglow red on the port and starboard engine panels. None of these aircraft as far as I remember had hold back gear or catapult hooks. XV338 and XV160 are the two I remember. Nether of these or any of the other a/c I remember would have been capable of carrier opps. My point is the RAF coloured Bucc on Ark would not have come from the RN unit at Honington not least at that time!
The only Navy cab on the RN unit was XV869 which was still wearing the markings of 736 squadron! However it had been up graded to S2″D” standard.It was later painted up with 809 squadron markings when transferred in 1975.
237OCU handled all Buccaneer training from 72 onwards, taking over from 736NAS. All buccs were built for carrier ops, though RAF examples simply had the catapult spools ‘unbolted’ in service. converting them back wouldn’t have been a big job, probably a few hours work. 237OCU operated a small pool of Navy configured Buccs not only to provide training for FAA crews but to act as rapid replacements for any aircraft lost by 809NAS in service, hence the 809 painted example mentioned above (the aforementioned PTF served a similar funtion for 892, and 849HQ flight operated three AEW3 Gannets in the seventies for B flight’s benefit). The Buccs pictured here are painted in 809 colours, but the lack of side numbers on the nose indicates they are on the strength of 237 as reserve aircraft for 809. I have a picture (not on my computer sadly) of a 237 aircraft in RAF camo on the static steam catapult at RAE Bedford so some of the S2A/S2Bs also had catapult points.
Obi Wan RussellHere’s some pics of 767NAS Phantoms, including one of the RAF aircraft loaned back to the Navy. 767 was disbanded in 1972 when the RAF took over the training of all Phantom crews, but the need for naval oriented training of the FAA Phantom crews dictated the need to establish a Phantom training flight at Leuchers, with about seven aircraft transferred from 767NAS. These aircraft were officially on RAF charge but retained their Navy camouflage, though they lost the ‘Royal Navy’ titling on the fuselage. The PTF was mostly commanded and crewed by the FAA.
Also some pics of Phantoms from 700P NAS conducting trials aboard Eagle in 1968, note the large metal plate chained to the deck behind the catapult, which was used to absorb the heat of the afterburners in place of Eagle’s non water-cooled JBDs. After launch the plate would glow white hot and was cooled down by fire hoses before the next aircraft to launch could taxi over it. Eagle also had her number three arrestor wire upgraded from DAX I to DAX II standard for the trials (retaining this installation to her decommissioning). So the upgrades needed to Phantomise her were: Three DAX II arrestor engines, Water cooled JBDs for her existing cats, and bridle catchers (not essential, but certainly desirable to bring down operating costs) . Total cost estimated in 1970 prices about £5million.
Obi Wan RussellThanks for your reply Obi Wan!
Makes you wonder why Eagle didn’t get the Phantom refit in ’66 instead of Ark which had considerable more work needed to bring her up to date. Would it not have cost less to operate the F4s from a refitted Eagle?
Ark Royal’s ‘Phantomisation’ refit cost £32million. Eagle’s would have cost in the region of £5million, and the navy intended to refit both. Enough F-4Ks (FG-1s) were bought to equip two frontline sqns and a training sqn plus attrition spares (48 aircraft + 2 prototypes) and the first the RN knew that Eagles refit was cancelled was when 20 of their Phantoms were delivered in RAF camouflage! These equipped 43sqn and some went to 767NAS to train the RAF aircrews at Yeovilton, still in RAF camo but with Navy side numbers and 767 sqn badge on the tail. Ark Royal’s refit provided work in Devonport dockyard which was then as now a marginal constituency politically. Eagles refit would only have taken about six months so was of little value politically. Common sense has little to do with many of the decisions taken at that time, it was mostly a case of the pollies saying “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!”
Obi Wan RussellWhy did the Navy never fit HMS Ark Royal (scraped 1979) with the type 984 radar? It was fitted to HMS Hermes from 1959 to 1970 and removed before she became a helicopter carrier in 1973, HMS Victorious before re-commissioning in 1958 and removed at Portsmouth prior to scraping in 1968, HMS Eagle from 1964 until the end of her last commission in 1972, she was towed to the breakers yard in 1978 with the large “dustbin” type radar aerial still in place above the island. In addition to the type 984 Eagle also had the type 965 (double bedstead) radar on the aft of the island.
Ark Royal went into refit in 1966, when she re-commissioned in 1970 she was given two Type 965 radars (double bedstead) and also a new US type CCA (Carrier Controlled Approach) radar. Was this a superior system to the 984? or a cost cutting measure? I would imagine the system from Victorious would have been available if needed!
Bringing Ark Royal up to Eagle’s standard would have taken a similar amount of time, ie about 5 years, which would have meant her being in refit until 1972 at least. Eagle’s reconstruction included a completely new island structure. Ark Royal’s refit was politically sensitive, and had it dragged on longer there were fears it would have been cancelled. This explains why she emerged from refit fiited for, but not with 4 Sea Cat Launchers. There simply wasn’t time to fit them before she was due back in service. After the ’66 Healy axe’ the government declared the type 984 as obsolete as further justification for phasing out the carriers (it was only fitted to three carriers so the cost of replacing it and keeping them in service became unjustifiable). Fitting two 965s was th ebest that could be done in the time available, though only one could be operated at a time because of mutual interference.
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