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Starfish Prime

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  • in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204058
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Probably true, but MICA is not a short-range air-to-air missile. It is a medium/long-range air-to-air missile.
    Still comparing apples to oranges ?

    By modern standards it is. 60-70km is not an MRAAM anymore.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204063
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    And the delirium continue…

    ASRAAM is a WVR missile with marginal and limited BVR capability due to lack of range and datalink while the MICA is a true medium range BVR missile with a datalink to update coordinates even when the target is out sensor range. The MICA has a far greater range than the ASRAAM with a max demonstrated range close to 70Km.

    To underline that MBDA is not marketing the ASRAAM as a BVR weapon on its official ASRAAM page but as a WVR missile while MBDA markets the MICA as a BVR missile. ASRAAM is no match for the MICA IR in terms of range.

    You’re the delirious one, claiming an ASRAAM has about half the range of an AIM-9X despite having 70% more fuel.

    The link I posted is from the official MBDA ASRAAM page.

    Also, what exactly do you think a >5km OTS shot at low altitude equates to at high altitude? Seems to me that’s a pretty demanding shot kinematically.

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216497&d=1368489056

    That’s just France refusing to admit that their ‘medium range’ AAM is really an SRAAM by modern standards.

    This is the archived version of the original MBDA page.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20131004061746/http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/asraam_background-1367919209.pdf

    http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/asraam_background-1367919209.pdf

    How come CAAM has >25% greater range than MICA VL?

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204087
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    you are not afraid to look ridiculous…No limit in stupidity !

    You are quoting the Vertically Launch Mica range (MICA VL)

    The Mica is an actual medium range BVR missile with a datalink and it has about 2,5 – 3 time the range of the ASRAAM. That’s why a fighter jet with a MICA-IR can remain out of reach of the ASRAAM/HMD combo. With todays sensor fusion and datalinks it will be hard to sneak undetected to get a shot with an ASRAAM on a fighter jet with a mica IR…

    MBDA describes the ASRAAM as WVR:
    http://www.mbda-systems.com/air-dominance/asraam/
    MBDA describes the MICA as BVR:
    http://www.mbda-systems.com/air-dominance/mica/

    Nope.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20131004061746/http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/asraam_background-1367919209.pdf

    ASRAAM’s maximum range is uncontested, and no other short-range air-to-air missile
    comes near to this capability, providing the ability to passively home beyond the limits
    of visual range and well into the realm traditionally thought of as Beyond Visual Range.

    MICA VL is literally a ground-launched MICA. CAAM is an ASRAAM-based missile using ASRAAM components. It is 10% longer, so assuming half volume is fuel, that maybe equals 20% more range. But is has >25% more range than MICA VL. So like I said, ASRAAM has roughly the same range as MICA IR, if not more.

    MICA
    3.1 * Pi * (0.16^2)/4 = 0.0623m^3

    ASRAAM
    2.9 * Pi * (0.166^2)/4 = 0.0628m^3

    At the moment you’re saying that an ASRAAM has far less range than an AIM-9X despite having 70% more fuel and a boat tail design. Hmmm… not very sensible.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204111
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    The MICA has at least three time the range of the ASRAAM…

    http://www.taiwanairpower.org/af/mirage.html

    Nope. ASRAAM has marginally larger internal volume and a lighter warhead to carry, also a cleaner profile.

    Take a look at the slightly longer ASRAAM-based CAAM vs MICA VL:

    http://www.mbda-systems.com/camm-solution/camm/

    Range : In excess of 25 km

    http://www.mbda-systems.com/ground-based-air-defence/vl-mica/

    Interception range : Up to 20 km

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204119
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    ASRAAM has the same range as MICA IR, if not greater. You won’t need to merge to fire it either. Works very nicely with PIRATE too.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204132
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Lukos,

    The fact that you show only the comment of the picture and not the full article where the French pilots interview is recorded prove how confident your are. 😎

    This is the only page I scanned. And I think the statement is quite clear. This is unsurprising to all but yourself. Trying to combat HMD WVR without HMD is nigh on futile even against a non-parity fighter. Going against a high performance fighter with HMD WVR, without HMD is suicide.

    Also, coming from a guy who takes French blogs as Gospel, your criticism is somewhat moot.

    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Peregrinefalcon’s NASA quote explains it better;

    The with zero excess power flies in Thrust = drag condition. If thrust is higher than drag (or lower), there will be a force (kg*m/s^2) on a moving object (m/s), there will be a rate of increase in energy in Joule/s, or kg*m^2/s^2 to write it in a more open form.

    Thermodynamics law: Total energy of the system = Kinetic energy of system + Potential energy of system + internal energy of the system.

    This law can apply to everything, and if we consider whole aircraft as this thermodynamic system, internal energy won’t change (ie, aircraft won’t heat up etc). So equation becomes E = KE+PE.

    As a performance parameter, we are looking on rate of kinetic energy change or potential energy change, so we take the differential of both sides;

    rate of energy change(dE) = dKE (rate of KE change) + dPE (rate of PE change).

    Power = mass*Velocity*dVelocity + mass*G*dHeight.
    dVelocity = rate of change in velocity, which means acceleration
    dHeight = rate of change in height, which means climb rate.

    divide both sides by mass and there is;
    Specific Power = velocity*acceleration + G*climb rate.

    Now as I’ve written above specific power has no meaning for the pilot; Some 1000 watt/kg is not a quantifiable measurement for him. So instead of giving such performance parameter, we divide both sides with G so we have

    Climb-rate/potential (as performance parameter) = velocity*acceleration/G + climb rate (as in aircrafts actual change in height).

    Now if you are flying at 300 m/s, and you have 200 m/s climb rate as written in the manual, this means you can climb at 200m/s without losing speed. You can surely go 90deg vertical and climb at 300m/s for an instant, but accordingly to this -scalar- energy equation you would be trading KE (slowing down) for this rate of increase in PE. Likewise, you can climb at 100m/s and accelerate at the same time (both KE and PE increase). Or you can stick at 0m/s climb rate (dPE = 0) and climb rate will mathematically give the level flight acceleration of the aircraft. On descent rate of PE change is also added to the rate of KE change.

    Even if you are flying at 309 m/s, an aircraft can surely have 345m/s climb rate. A SAM recently launched and flying 20-30 m/s can even have 500+ m/s climb rate. This climb rate is a mere representation of energy change of aircraft, which pilot can use in any combination of KE and PE change.

    If climb rate is equal to aircraft’s speed, this means aircraft can climb at 90 degree angle and won’t speed up or slow down. If its higher, than this excess climb-potential will result in KE change, which means acceleration on vertical climb.

    Despite it says “climb rate” graph its solely related with energy and should be read with caution: if a MiG-29 wants to make a quick climb from 11 km altitude, actual climb rate won’t be highest around 180m/s @M1,7. It will be highest at M2,3 @ 678 m/s when MiG-29 makes an exact 90 degree vertical climb (assuming no direction change delays). But since MiG-29 has only 60m/s climb rate at that speed, it will see a quick deceleration equivalent to (60-678) m/s climb rate; 60-678 = v*a/g = -8,94 m/s^2 deceleration. Assuming constant deceleration, it will slow down to below M2,0 just within 10 seconds, but will have 633 m/s average climb rate during that time, to ascend it to 17km altitude.

    For aerodynamics 101 this does not matter, as people are teached without this background, examplified by something with puny climb rates like B-737 or something, so certain know-it-all people can easily calculate angle from simple trigonometry. Its perfectly ok, but gets unamusing when they draw conclusions and making assumptions about all aircraft should climb at 60 degrees so climb rate will give an imaginary speed and draw even more conclusions from that.

    Climb rate/potential is also variable with dynamic thrust, L/D and how much G aircraft pulls (which is also independent of aircraft weight), and its shown as lines for Energy-maneuverability diagram F-16 manual for example. In a sense, that diagram doesn’t only show ITR and STR, it also shows the vertical play and acceleration capability of the F-16 as well. As energy is a scalar quantity (instead of vectoral), one an use this graph to say F-16 at Mach A pulling B amount of Gs can climb/descent C amount of meters and accelerate/decelerate by D amount.

    Nope, up to the bit in bold you were doing so well.

    You are trying to conflate SEP and Climb Rate.

    You had it here:

    rate of energy change(dE) = dKE (rate of KE change) + dPE (rate of PE change).

    I.e.

    SEP = [dPE/dt + dKE/dt]/mg = dh/dt + (V/g)*(dV/dt)

    It is not a measure of potential to climb but potential to climb + potential to accelerate.

    You can’t turn it all to climb rate unless you satisfy V*sin(alpha) = hdot.

    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Sure we are, but just to make some things clear…

    If I’m understanding you correctly, let’s say for example that the plane X travels at 187 m/s at sea level. The actual max climb rate at ~60° climb angle for the X plane should be ~162,6 m/s according to your calculation method?

    Am I right?

    And if I’m wrong, can you calculate for me the max climb rate for the X plane at 60 and 90° climb angle?

    Yes, unless the plane changes airspeed. 60deg is an approximation, it will vary depending on aircraft. I actually get 161.95m/s at 60deg and obviously 187m/s at 90deg.

    http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/climb.pdf
    http://www.srmuniv.ac.in/sites/default/files/downloads/class12-2012.pdf
    https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/13-09981.pdf

    SEP = Ability to gain Energy

    Not specifically PE. The maximum actual sustained ascent rate at any speed is:

    hdot = V*sin(alpha)

    The maximum rate of climb is attained when this equation is at its highest and when:

    V*([T-D]/W) is equal to the same value.

    If V is not high enough, such that Vsin(alpha) != hdot

    Then it does not stand as a legitimate climb rate, it is simply specific excess power and a measure of how much combined KE+PE an aircraft can gain from a given airspeed at peak thrust.

    The first link shows how the optimum airspeed and angle is derived for a given aircraft.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204351
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    That isn’t irony by any definition.

    http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/sigmafour1/TyphoonvsRafale2_zps3jzbsudd.png

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204363
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Here what was said by French pilots:
    “We were surprised on day one, and have to adapt our strategy for day 2”

    I was guessing you would get the French irony from the French pilots.

    If you think that’s irony, then you need a dictionary. And again, there is no indication that things changed on day 2. HMD is virtually impossible to beat WVR, unless you have HMD.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204369
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Well… it was efficient the first day of the exercise. But you re true, it is rare enough and so deserve to be mentioned.
    Concerning the debate about HMD, I was thinking the HMD was first a display device, and second a pointing device not directly for a missile, but more for the sensors.

    Was efficient the second day two. Rafale pilots did say they succeeded on day two, just that they had to change their tactics.

    The HMD is both.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204410
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    Si how does the missile know where to look accurately if it can’t lock on a target off-boresight before launch ? How can the HMDS give it enough data ? How could angular information bé satisfying when it doesn’t give target aspect and a proper velocity vector ?

    I don’t understand why a HMDS would do the job when on Rafale, the DDM-NG was denied the very same capability by some members of this forum.

    Well the efficiency of the Typhoon’s HMD system was noted even by Rafale pilots during a recent trilateral (US-French-UK) training exercise.

    Basically the IIR seeker is a very wide angle staring array, it doesn’t need remarkable cue accuracy to find the target. A single DAS element has a +/-60deg FoV as an example. The ASRAAM seeker can likely cover the same FoV while stationary and up to +/-90deg when tilted.

    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    With RF cyberwarfare coming of age, supplying source codes is a very sensitive subject.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204476
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    well , we can go on about this wording all days , but without offcial claim from manufacturer ( like they did with EOTS ), it rather impossible to conclude DAS has passive ranging or not.

    It’s very likely that it does.

    in reply to: ECM pod can reduce RCS? #2204479
    Starfish Prime
    Participant

    your statements are based on misunderstanding of what’s being shown to you… not much to refute, except your lack of understanding of what’s being shown to you

    I’m reading the words as they are, you’re making up your own interpretation, that’s the difference. Show me one link saying the OTS ASRAAM shot used a second aircraft for designation.

Viewing 15 posts - 136 through 150 (of 947 total)