AFAIK Mig-25 is limited to Mach 2.8 or around that , not sure if that is with load or not though
i wondered if Mig-31 can reach similar speed – altitude or much slower due to high bypass turbofan engine.
If you look how flat the right side of that envelope is, you’ll note it’s an artificial limit to protect the HP turbine.
So what you are trying to say is that pitot intake ( on F-16) can achieve the same performance as variable intake (on f-15 )up to Mach 1, hence fixed intake on Typhoon vs variable inlet on Mig-29 should have similar behavior ?
Seem reasonable enough , what is your reply Andraxxus?
No, I’m saying the F-16 uses a pitot intake which produces 1 normal shock only, which is the least efficient kind of intake possible above M1.0. Yet at M1.2, the difference vs variable ramps is negligible.
The Typhoon uses a fixed ramp, which produces one oblique shock followed by a normal shock, which is far superior to pitot and will perform similarly to a variable geometry system up to about M1.6 and is probably only about 5% down at M2.0. Yet even though less efficient after M2.0, the Typhoon’s T-D is such that it still manages a higher top speed that the MiG-29. A fixed ramp basically functions the same as the fixed cone inlets on early fighters.
OK, riddle me this. What is the top speed of B-1A vs B-1B? What is the top speed of early Su-24 Fencer A vs later models?
Forget about M 2.2 and M 1.3 at sea level. That is the placard limit. And a loaded Tornado is barely able to reach M 1.3 and a little over M 1 at sea level so why bother with variable intake ramps. German ECR Tornados (the newest jets) came with fixed intakes right from the production line.
It may well be a limit with 2270L DTs, but not clean. I can only imagine they added ramped intakes due to the fact there’s an ADV but that said, barely any fighter currently with variable ramp intakes actually needs them.
The B-1B was limited by structure relative toe B1A. B1B was designed to have 1/10th the RCS of the B1A though.
I also question what that fight envelope you’ve shown is for but it doesn’t say Tornado or GR4 anywhere and the speeds and ceiling is all wrong. Data Basis – Estimated.
Since bot the German and Italian AF statements were not enough for you, here is the manufacturer.
http://www.panavia.de/aircraft/overview/
Performance IDS/Recce/ECR ADV
Max speed (hi/clean) Mach 2.2 Mach 2.27
Max speed (lo/clean) Mach 1.2 Mach 1.2
Max speed (lo/external stores) Mach 0.9 Mach 0.9
They all state it as Captor-E is GaA, and radar 2 is the UK specific version.
Your own words on the previous page show that your lying. You state not once, but twice that radar 2 is not the same radar. I’m done with this as obviously you are going to stay true to form, and try to twist the debate.
So why is it called Radar 2 and not Radar 1+ or 1.1?
Don’t play semantics, we know it’s the same baseline, but the actual technology is different. Radar 2 is not just the culmination of Selex development, but QinetiQ development too, whereas Radar 1/1+ is Selex alone.
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Bright%20Adder
The AESA situation is complex, as there are, effectively, two different evolution paths which will be harmonized into the final product: in addition to the british Bright Adder demonstrator, the Euroradar consortium, led by SELEX Galileo and comprising Cassidian and Indra, is working on the Captor-E, development of which was announced at the Farnborough International Air Show on 20 July 2010.
We know that a cargo plane was shot down a few days earlier, but there is no evidence that a Buk was involved in that incident. The Buk used for the attack on MH17 has been tracked by the JIT for most of its journey from the Russian border to the launch site, and for much of the return journey back to Russia. Locations and times have established. They have eyewitness accounts, photos, and videos that document its movements. These show that it came to the launch site with four missiles loaded, and went back to Russia with only three.
So it would seem that some people in East Ukraine do not approve of that that TELAR and its crew did, and are prepared to help bring them to justice. An individual who was involved with moving the TELAR is known to be co-operating with the JIT’s detectives (but I’m sure that you will dream up some excuse for rejecting that evidence!).
This report is a politically charged pile of …
So a report, which it seems you have not bothered to read, is in your humble opinion useless (I will not repeat the phase you used; I have too much respect for the laws of libel). In your world, your personal opinion counts for more than one or two years of work by an international team of specialists and trained investigators. Have you ever met anyone from the DSB or JIT – the sort of first-hand acquaintance that would allow you to judge their expertise and approach to the job? Yet without that knowledge you are prepared to attack their integrity. This ludicrous level of near non-existent reasoning shows the uselessness of attempting any further discussion with you.
To quote Jonesy:
Fiver bet says it was.
Sorry but unless you have a video of it along the whole journey there’s no way of proving that. Was there only 1 BUK in the whole Donbass? I’m not rejecting any evidence but you haven’t provided any. I believe it probably was the rebels but the evidence is circumstantial at best and certainly wouldn’t be enough to support say a murder prosecution in a court of law.
The fact they don’t point the finger at the airline or ATC, or criticise the practice of flying over war zones, or draw the conclusion that it was likely a SAM was known to be in the area prior says it all. Whitewash. All about finger-pointing rather than learning from mistakes and preventing them in the future. For me an investigation like this is supposed to set forward plans to prevent future incidents, not simply point fingers. And if every party outside of the rebels had done everything right, this incident would have been impossible. So in summary business as usual until it happens again some day, which is will, because nobody has learnt anything and nothing has changed.
Again, switching the arguements. Find one, one statement that radar 2 is not the UK specific Captor-E but an entirely different radar as you stated. Find one release, statement, mention of GaN based TRM post 2010 for the Typhoon AESA.. You can’t, your wrong, the rest is just a smokescreen.
Entirely different, no. Different, yes. GaN, yes. Ultimate version, yes. Later date, yes.
Your? No. You’re.
Find me one statement saying Radar 2 is GaAs. I found a link saying the ultimate version will be GaN, shown that Radar 2 is the ultimate version and shown that TRM development is uniform across Europe for fighter AESAs. The least you owe me is a link saying Radar 2 is GaAs.
You don’t understand. Tornado operators RAF and GAF (not sure about the others) have locked the intake ramps on their Tornados hence the M 1.3 top speed.
You need to learn how to read a graph. The one you posted clearly (well not for everyone it seems) indicates a top speed of M 2.45 for an -220 equipped F-15C. It is less then that for an Eagle with -100 motors. M 2.5+ sure, but only on a cold day over Montana.
But why bother with actual flight manuals when you can quote USAF fact sheets. :stupid:
It wouldn’t be M1.3 on afterburner with or without locked intakes, or even a pitot intake. How exactly does variable ramps to fixed ramps take speed down from M2.27 to M1.3? Honestly, the crap people have posted in this thread is scarcely credible. Even flying low it manages that.
Flying low the Tornado can reach a speed of up to Mach 1.3.
Some people on this forum, honestly.
Only at STD. The flight manuals are not always completely accurate. Shouldn’t the USAF know?
Now a typical bait and switch happening on the TRM debate. Stick to the point at hand- which is your argument that radar 2 is a GaN TRM radar, and entirely different from Captor-E 1+
Your entire premise is based on a from a link in 2010, which vaguely mentions they may switch to GaN in the future..
Releases in 2014 showed that the consortium chose GaA. You insist that Radar 2 is an entirely different radar despite all releases stating that it is the UK specific Captor-E integration plan (granted the UK radar is to have some UK specific improvements).
Now I ask you:
First, which company is developing this entirely different radar? Next, where is it mentioned in the MoD budget? Lastly, why has nothing since 2010 said anything about GaN, or that the UK Radar 2 program is a different radar, yet all the links I posted state the opposite?Here is the 2014 budget. The 72 million for the development of the Captor-E is listed: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/396102/20150112-EP_Plan_Document-Final_OS_to_PDF_version-2-1.pdf
Here is a Leonardo contract to integrate a new E-scan IFF to be integrated with the Captor-E (one of the UK specific improvements was IFF upgrade). Hence it is integrated on Captor-E, not some entirely different radar as you postulate.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2016/07/13/Leonardo-to-study-Typhoon-friend-or-foe-capability-under-UK-program/2041468420660/
http://www.janes.com/article/62334/farnborough-2016-leonardo-finmeccanica-launches-iff-study-for-uk-typhoonHere is BAE stating explicitly that the UK radar is Captor-E with UK specific improvements :
–http://aviationweek.com/shownews/bae-begins-e-scan-radar-test-flightsIn other words, the case is closed, your wrong and as per usual: assert that you are right in spite of all evidence, and try to reshape the debate to appear correct.
I already posted several articles saying they’re different versions. Your articles say nothing to the contrary… a pointless post on your behalf. yeah, it’s the same baseline but with GaN TRMs and RF attack and RF cyberwarfare.
https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/whr_1-15_maximising_european_combat_air_power_0.pdf
The UK’s version of CAPTOR-E (Radar 2 Extended
Assessment Phase) is being developed to take advantage of some of this work
and build on it to incorporate inputs from PIRATE and the DASS much more
than the current sensor suite centred on CAPTOR-M.Progressive
enhancements to PIRATE and the accuracy of passive location and electronic
warfare capabilities through the DASS, coupled with the radar 2 CAPTOR-E
being developed for the RAF, together offer a boost to situational awareness
and detection capabilities, which should make RAF Typhoons formidable
opponents against even LO designs from the early 2020s.8 Other partner
states are not yet signed up to such a comprehensive sensor-suite upgrade,
although Italy has showed interest, particularly in the radar 2 version
of CAPTOR-E. Spain and Germany are currently committed to the radar
1+ version of CAPTOR-E, which offers standard air-to-air AESA capability
as well as limited air-to-ground search functions including high-definition
SAR mapping. However, it does not imply the same level of commitment to
develop the sensor-fusion, electronic warfare and communications potential
of the CAPTOR-E architecture.

http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/Aircraft_Self-Protection.pdf
The latestsupport to self-protectionwill
however originate from the new aesa radar
which is to replace the Captor system,
providing in a spiralled programme with
passive, active and cyberwarfare RF
capabilities.
What can I say, RUSI know more than you. If it was just a software block, they’d add the baseline version and then update later.
:sleeping: …more of the usual lukos bs.
That is their top speed (clean) because the intake ramps are locked.
He clearly wrote -100 engines.
He also wrote even with -220 or -229 engines, top speed is less than Mach 2.5 which the graph shows.
Tornado uses variable geometry ramps and has an actual Vmax of Mach 2.27.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado#Engine
You need to learn how to read a graph me thinks. In reality it actually managed more and speed was always stated as M2.5+ even in Jane’s.
http://archive.is/20120730162301/http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=101
Yeah, I didn’t get that comment either, they’re also coastal countries. The UK is pretty small as country size goes and it has tankers.
Doesn’t the F-35 have an overheating issue ?
No, it had a sealant issue, which has since been resolved.
I agree…if you have a full blown war there shouldn’t be an airliner flying around the area. I just cannot figure out why Russia tries to deny that they shot an airliner.
Furthermore…BUK has +22 km altitude range…it is almost like Patriot…very capable and mobile as we have seen…but not invisible as we can see in the video where the BUK drives with only 3 missiles left.
Smoking gun has been detected.
Well Russia itself didn’t do it. If it had been Russia they likely would have been able to ID the aircraft from the S-400 complex sitting just over the border. There’s also no way a BUK missile could have reached the given location from across the Russian border either.
Additionally, we know that a cargo plane was shot down a few days earlier, so at least one BUK TELAR was likely going around a missile short anyway. So that on its own is hardly conclusive. That said it’s highly likely that it was the rebels but the real lesson of future benefit to learn is not to fly over war zones and that’s why this report fails.
Because they didn’t have access to the “war setting” capabilities?
Nic
Oh how convenient. Maybe the same is true for the other fighters and therefore the evaluation is invalid?;)
Two can play the BS game.
That’s plain lying. Nice work.
Nic
If all it’s doing is cancelling radar reflection, how would anyone know it was on? The net result is a cancelled signal, i.e. no signal according to the marketing bumf.
Just as a final note.
In terms of looking at this pragmatically and throwing politics out the window, what’s more likely to prevent future such incidents? Instructing airlines not to fly through war zones or telling Russia and the rebels that they’re very naughty boys?